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IPS - Jack of All Trades, Master of Two


mat206
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You strongly oppose the decision to once again use a hand-built CSS/PHP framework - I get that. You have made the argument loud and clear all around the forums, >the reasons for doing so regardless. I'm out.

*Sigh* Wordpress was an example of a more full-featured app.. bad code or not it is vastly more supported. IP.Nexus is an example of an underdeveloped app which hasn't quite been able to keep up with other major shopping carts nor probably will. That's just fact. I've seen the list of IP.Nexus requests and I can easily match it up with how many were fulfilled.. that forum makes my point.

I still think core needs a developer version with no installed apps and a license for development use only that is free so the developer pool can be opened up. Nothing you state though ever addresses the issue at hand.. Google has a killer app in Gmail just like IPS has a killer app in their forums. Google was able to sell a hell of a lot of google apps accounts based on having a system that integrates a lot of widely used business software.

IPS needs developers to support their platform. I honestly don't care much about the custom CSS framework other than it makes it easier to get themes. The bigger sin is that IPS never deprecates parts of their API (from minor to minor version) or from 3.X to 4.0 aren't bootstrapping the 3.x API in any way. Why is it par for the course that everything breaks so consistently? I recall stuff like the IP.Content callbacks being removed entirely without so much as a mention or official replacement until you stepped up and wrote one (ironically the removal was also based on your suggestion).

I like when things are easy to use.. interchangeable.. use open standards.. I like APIs that are stable and represent an actual solid foundation to develop on. And I like when the developer pool is larger and I can easily get a person to develop for me. I like more apps, *especially* more quality apps.. as an app developer I like a larger customer base to sell to. You seem to have the attitude that this stuff is just unfixable.. and yes, I would expect IPS to maintain and debug a select few integrations because IPS has a name and brand that you can trust.. and that's important when you are making business decisions.

Hopefully with 4.0 they bang out a stable API and can ensure that no API functionality will break minor version to minor version unless it is for security purposes.

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I think that you may be getting a little shortsighted here :smile: While I understand that you will certainly think that the apps you use are the most important, do not forget that many people use

What does this matter? To me, if something has more plugins, then it sounds like it is missing a lot of features that people want.

You show up as a Contributor - why not build out the integrations that you want (Prestashop, Wordpress, whatever it is you need) and sell them in the marketplace? If you feel there's a market for the

The bigger sin is that IPS never deprecates parts of their API (from minor to minor version) or from 3.X to 4.0 aren't bootstrapping the 3.x API in any way.

:| The PHP framework 3.x is built upon is 4> years old. The base framework has not changed in the entirety of that time - though changes have occurred in specific areas, you are making this out to be a joomla or drupal development framework change cycle - it's just not. The current architecture as it stands simply cannot stand any longer while meeting the goals set out cleanly - it's really just that simple.

I still think core needs a developer version with no installed apps and a license for development use only that is free so the developer pool can be opened up.

I can appreciate your desire, from a client perspective, I just don't see it ever happening personally, it is not a wise business decision, it is allowing piracy of a commercial product en-masse - you are asking for a free copy of the core for anyone who desires one. :/ The core IS IPB, it is what I pay for, not the forums app, but the framework to build against, and it is proprietary commercial code - you don't have to convince me here, you have to convince management to look away from the cost of building, maintenance, and support of the core to increase the third-party developer pool. Good luck with that - think it through, would you eat that cost?
Much less, I personally am glad to pay - Member/Group/Login/Template/Localization/Database/Security Management - handled, not my problem just by using it sanely, much less the other API's in existence now - it is worth money for time savings - take that to 4.0 with all the changes mentioned... It is a true full-on framework, but still presenting the things all other frameworks leave up to you to manually implement. I did look at laravel and such and frankly, why ever would I want to maintain a separate member database for everything when it all just plugs right in to each-other in IPB no fuss no muss?
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A few things are important though Marcher. First, let's not pretend in this discussion that somehow piracy of IPS software isn't easy. If someone wants to install and run a pirated copy of the software it takes roughly three seconds on google to find one.

I'll never get where your business sense comes from here. The core can be distributed under whatever usage terms they want. Plenty of companies release developer versions of their software that cannot be used for production use. It also gains value through it's feature addons like spam protection that can come from production customers only.

And the rest is simple economics but let's say they went one step further and just made core free (not open source, but free).. Right this very moment, every app you sell in the marketplace comes as a result of an IPS customer who purchases it. The more people adopting the platform the more you sell. Now nobody in there right mind would spend the time developing an alternative Board app for core because you'd be nuts.. IP.Board is too good. Likewise IPS could spend literally a few seconds in their database and take a statistical look at how many people who buy IP.Board also buy one more (or all of) their apps. If I'm running core and want something to do with it, they are offering some pretty premium apps here.

This by the way is a proven strategy.. see both the Apple's iTunes and Google's marketplace. And how do platforms fail? Lack of apps.. IPS has 6 so far that are pretty good, but my premise is that they can do better than that and sell more apps.

Oh, and you're right btw.. IPS does have a better core in a lot of ways and that's a huge reason for people to adopt it. They just need to get more people to use it. Getting people to install and use core is 95% of the battle towards getting a sale.

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I think the point is being missed. IPS has never provided support for third party apps and I don't think they should. The developers should be responsible for their own stuffr and I'm starting to see instances where even the third party developers abandon their own plugins and marketplace items because they are no longer interested in updating them. While most developers do update their plugins and skins, it's just unacceptable that developers won't update their own marketplace items.

IPS is right to distance itself away from providing support for Marketplace items because they would be inundated for providing support for crap that should be supported by the developers who created them. Developers who take the stance "well, I won't provide support for the plugin I created" or "you need to register on my site because I don't provide support on IPS forums" seems to be pointing a big middle finger at IPS clients who are more active on the IPS support forums than anywhere else.

While I'm no longer a member at those warez sites, I do read a lot of remarks from those who use those sites that complain about the lack of support from third party developers who don't support their own products and I see their point. I recently asked Lawliet if he ever planned on updating his premiums skins that are stioll listed in the marketplace and his response was "that was back when I was doing my amateur work so I'm not going to update them". Uh, IPS clients like myself who paid to purchase your marketplace items and you won't even update your own Marketplace items? And then you expect others to fix your mistakes?

Not only is that unfair but it's not right to charge for your premium content and then not provide support or update your stuff when someone who paid for that item has requested when it will be updated. IPS should NOT be getting involved with providing support for the stuff in the Marketplace because that would only create a problem with some devs telling IPS clients to "ask IPS" because "I'm not interested in figuring out why my plugin won't work for you".

It's a cheap way to pawn your coding errors off on IPS support.

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I feel like the longer this thread goes the more I need to condense my message: find a way to attract more commercial developers and integrate with more premium services (like you did with mandrill) and apps.

This means building more incentives for developers to create quality apps.. which also means you are going to grow your customer base. That was one of the factors that lead to suggesting making the core a free product. Right now only tiny apps are worthwhile because you are vastly constrained by the number of people using the IPS core.

Another idea would be to create a free developer edition core to get developers to build apps and then make it easy in the marketplace for customers to buy core + (some app). That way the marketplace is open to everybody out there, and they can get a pre-bundled core license with the purchase of an app.

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The first thing that needs to happen is that third party developers, for the products that appear in the marketplace, need to continue to be updated by the developers producing them. If they don't want to continue providing support or update their marketplace items, then they should hand them over to those who will continue the development. Instead, they act like prima donnas (sorry, no offense initended here) when those of us who have pruchased their 'wares' ini the marketplace ask those developers to update their content so that they work with the current version of the IPS Community Suite software.

If they cannot update their content, then either remove it froom the marketplace or pass that content on to other developers. I don't think it's rocket science.

If they aren't going to continue to update their content in the marketplace, then they need to be required to add a stipulation in the description of their content that 'this item is no longer being updated for newer versions of the IPS software'.

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Mat:

You've provided some valid, constructive feedback in this topic and I appreciate it.

The restructuring from addons to applications and redeveloping a core to accommodate will give us the flexibility that we've been after for years. We've been closely analyzing the popularity of our various products as well as demand for changes to the lineup and will be announcing a couple of changes very soon.

Your assessment that the IPS development team is spread too thin is not entirely accurate. To the contrary, our dev team is quite perfectly sized. Keep in mind, not all products need constant innovation. There's only so many ways to serve up a file download, for example. There is a lot of room for evolution in other products, however, such as IP.Content and IP.Nexus and resources are being allocated appropriately to those products. IPS4 is at the forefront right now with other product refreshes on the roadmap.

As for third party integration, we certainly do not discourage third party modules. I am personally not a fan of a hodge podge of various products all tied together. That is actually why IP.Nexus was born -- it started as a solution for our own needs as maintaining third party solutions and integration is just more hassle than it's worth. Company A releases a new version. Company A's new release is not compatible with Company B's current release. You then have to wait for Company B to have an update before you can leverage Company A's new features. That's assuming you're not dealing with Company C that hasn't had a release in 3 years, rendering the aforementioned a moot point anyway. I don't like it and I don't want to end up supporting such an environment, so we leave that stuff entirely to the developer/marketplace community. We do fully cooperate with companies that wish to integrate, however.

Thanks for the feedback.

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You're all arguing apples and oranges. There is no 1 system that will do it all however you want, not a single one will. If you're a good developer, the best software is the one you write for yourself for what you need specifically and how you want it done.

I agree that with only 4.5 months left, I would love to see more of the features of IPS, what it looks like, some live examples/beta examples of how things are working, not snippets of code or "hey guys, IPS is going to do this! Sorry, we can't show you that though...." that any common person may/may not understand and what you say will happen. I've been there done that -- Documentation has said it is going to be vastly improved on, yet there hasn't been examples of this documentation for the dev party really, or not much of it.

None of us know what we're really going to expect out of 4.0. We just have to trust in IPS to release something that's great. Personaly, from what I've seen/read -- It's going to be a rewrite to develop a core, divide everything out, make you have to rewrite/theme everything because of just that, replace classes and add 5ish features that will make deving simpler for non coders, and harder for coders because I'm sure the documentation will be poor like it has always been, but it's slowly (very slowly) improving.

I simply expect the system to get upgraded in core enhancements like using jQuery instead of Prototype, changes like that do make a big impact, but I don't feel any ingenuity will come out with the 4.0 release that none of the other software are already doing, especially since they all copy off one another .

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What about on the developer support side.. what is going to be improved there to improve the quality and number of apps? How can you make it so that it makes good business sense to develop on the IPS platform?

That will come over time as more and more people use / swicth to using IPB. IPS can't wave a magic wand and make people develop for IPB.

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That will come over time as more and more people use / swicth to using IPB. IPS can't wave a magic wand and make people develop for IPB.

If IPS buys into that then people won't develop for IPB. You can always influence and create a culture with your actions and developers go where the money is at. If IPS is an attractive platform that looks like people can make some legit money off of it, then they're going to attract developers. That's why I advocated towards making the core free just to get the platform out there. Then people can buy all the IPS apps and other developers can make standalone apps that just require the platform.. but IPS can still take a cut of the 3rd party app sales and can still upsell integrated services AND they have an easy way to market all their other apps.

You can only sell apps if people are using your platform.. plain and simple. You can charge a premium if you are the only game in town, but IPS isn't.. but they can lower the barrier to entry to practically risk free and exert control over the marketplace through moderation of apps (kind of like Apple does).

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What about on the developer support side.. what is going to be improved there to improve the quality and number of apps?

Quality has nothing to do with developer numbers. 2,000 monkeys will still produce an inferior product. Please note VB5.

How can you make it so that it makes good business sense to develop on the IPS platform?

It does, for any business willing to make an investment(you know, that thing a proper business does, instead of expecting to make money with no monetary investment), you seek to compare commercial to freeware. Please tell me how developing on open-source, code that can have massive rewrites make it into a release at random person x's whim, is so much more cost-efficient?

I am open wholly to any ideas to help bring in more developers - that do not render the core free - never. ever. will that happen.

I laughed quite heartily at your Apple comparison - you need an apple device to develop for apple at all.... and you pay more for that device than you ever will for IPB. Much less their token fees for a developer license to even get an app published. Apple is the opposite of developer-caring. Try waiting weeks for a release resolving outstanding issues in the app put on the app store to actually be released to the public, put up with the support headache thereof, then tell me it makes "good business sense" to develop for apple. They are just a giant in the room one cannot ignore, thus have such numbers.

If IPS buys into that then people won't develop for IPB. You can always influence and create a culture with your actions and developers go where the money is at. If IPS is an attractive platform that looks like people can make some legit money off of it, then they're going to attract developers. That's why I advocated towards making the core free just to get the platform out there. Then people can buy all the IPS apps and other developers can make standalone apps that just require the platform.. but IPS can still take a cut of the 3rd party app sales and can still upsell integrated services AND they have an easy way to market all their other apps.

You can only sell apps if people are using your platform.. plain and simple. You can charge a premium if you are the only game in town, but IPS isn't.. but they can lower the barrier to entry to practically risk free and exert control over the marketplace through moderation of apps (kind of like Apple does).

Firstly, see my comments above, do your homework, Apple is *so* not developer friendly.
Secondly... '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> How many times can we beat this dead horse?
Thirdly, the apple model would literally kill the marketplace. Wait weeks for updates to actually be deemed 'acceptable' with clients breathing down my neck? Umm... no... thanks.... please... keep that.
Fourthly, and the literal most important item - support. Is 100% optional in every single open-source marketplace I have ever seen. Release and run. Repeat at will. That is not the case here. This is why IPB modders vanish quite often for 'other', the support load drives them batty - this is not to say at all I would prefer that model, it would make less headache for me surely, but would leave me with no feedback and an inferior product.

Finally - do you know how hard it is to MAKE money on something integrating with open source? You want to talk freeloading, you think people blanch at price tags now...

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Quality has nothing to do with developer numbers. 2,000 monkeys will still produce an inferior product. Please note VB5.

It does, for any business willing to make an investment(you know, that thing a proper business does, instead of expecting to make money with no monetary investment), you seek to compare commercial to freeware. Please tell me how developing on open-source, code that can have massive rewrites make it into a release at random person x's whim, is so much more cost-efficient?

I am open wholly to any ideas to help bring in more developers - that do not render the core free - never. ever. will that happen.

I laughed quite heartily at your Apple comparison - you need an apple device to develop for apple at all.... and you pay more for that device than you ever will for IPB. Much less their token fees for a developer license to even get an app published. Apple is the opposite of developer-caring. Try waiting weeks for a release resolving outstanding issues in the app put on the app store to actually be released to the public, put up with the support headache thereof, then tell me it makes "good business sense" to develop for apple. They are just a giant in the room one cannot ignore, thus have such numbers.

Firstly, see my comments above, do your homework, Apple is *so* not developer friendly.
Secondly... '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> How many times can we beat this dead horse?
Thirdly, the apple model would literally kill the marketplace. Wait weeks for updates to actually be deemed 'acceptable' with clients breathing down my neck? Umm... no... thanks.... please... keep that.
Fourthly, and the literal most important item - support. Is 100% optional in every single open-source marketplace I have ever seen. Release and run. Repeat at will. That is not the case here. This is why IPB modders vanish quite often for 'other', the support load drives them batty - this is not to say at all I would prefer that model, it would make less headache for me surely, but would leave me with no feedback and an inferior product.

Finally - do you know how hard it is to MAKE money on something integrating with open source? You want to talk freeloading, you think people blanch at price tags now...

I'm not rehashing the open source idea. I'm talking about making the core free under an IPS license or at least available to developers for free. This does not entitle anyone to modify and redistribute the core. Don't repeat the words open source in a reply because that's not what I'm talking about.

I knew you would bring up the upfront dev costs for Apple. They can do that with 14% of the smartphone marketshare.. it comes with a territory IPS doesn't have. Conversely, Android as a platform was distributed for free and now commands almost 80% of the marketshare and literally obliterated the dominance once held by iphone. And it doesn't matter if Apple is friendly at this point.. they have the market and developers chase the money.

It still comes down to some simple math.. let's say IPS has 1000 customers then as an app developer you max out at 1000 potential sales. IPS can take another route and evangelize itself as the one BEST commercial platform for php applications and get the number of installed platform users well above that. It's ability to distribute marketing messages and services to people installing those platforms would help in sales. I'd love to see tutorials outside of community.invisionpower.com on how to develop for the IPS platform just like you see with Symfony, Yii, FuelPHP, Codeigniter, etc.. because they have a real chance to trump them all. But they have to lure developers.. and you can do that if developers know that the platform is widely utilized. If core is free, then they aren't going to be the only ones evangelizing it.. developers will be. And they can control the marketplace through licensing.

Here's a theory on why this marketplace isn't as good as it could be:

* Expectations on versioning - when new IPS versions are released developers are demonized if they don't update apps/hooks, often for free

* Support contracts aren't codified in any way leading to sometimes unrealistic expectations for product support

* Most apps are priced too low for a developer to also provide support and continue development

* No differentiation between premium apps and non-premium apps and hooks - Major products are easy to get lost in the cruft

* Low top end on sales - You can see it when you look at sales figures for the best apps in the marketplace

It comes down to this.. Customers should have specific rights, and developers should have the same.. and somewhere things are confused and misunderstood.

Rather than argue with me, try a different angle and propose some actual solutions for increasing the attractiveness of this marketplace to outside professional developers who aren't just a fly-by-night "IPB Modder". Come up with some ideas on how you attract other companies to provide official applications for this platform. That's what this thread is all about.. people pay money for quality apps, and that is what makes this platform a potential winner over open source counterparts.

IPS can ONLY sell applications if people are using the platform.. it comes down to that.

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As for updates on 4.0 and updates in general I'm surprised to read this. IPS is well known for keeping everyone up to date and communicating on what we're doing. We have posted a lot of blog entries on 4.0 already and will continue to do so. We actually have quite a few lined up and ready to post but these all reveal the look and feel of things so we want to hold off a bit. Once we reveal those sort of things people start to get pretty excited :smile: .

I am too excited already. Have been F5'ing the blogs for a good while now. :frantics:

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Having read only the opening post of this topic unfortunately I couldn't agree more having been using invision forum software since before it had any apps and every modification was basically a manual hack.

Ah back with invision prided itself on loyal customers and its software instead of just numbers. In fact if I remember correctly that was the main mantra back then for invision, being more for loyalty than numbers (one the main reasons stuck with it when went completely commercial). Obviously this mantra has long been lost and numbers have become more important than quality software and the QOS to go with them, and as such so has my respect for invision been dramatically reduced and I'm sure plenty of others feel the same way I do who have been using invision for just as long.

Take a step back guys because the software and service was hundreds of times better when you took real pride in your software and it wasn't just all about the dollars...

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I am personally conflicted reading this thread, because I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with parts of what everyone is saying but nothing whole. There have been some framework/core things I've wanted for many years to help springboard a project I have in the pipeline, but I'm still waiting. That's, in part, on me because I've only voiced those needs a couple times and many years back. I still think IPB is the best platform for what I want to do, and see 4.0 as having many of those things to finally get me off the ground. Retrospectively, however, the wait has and continues to be a little painful.

The 'Marketplace' has always been an issue. Going way back, it came out of a community of board operators that needed software features, took time to document the modification procedure to get that feature, and shared them with the masses. I used to contribute a few back in the 1.3 and 2.x days when the 'Marketplace' was, in fact, a 3rd party community. As has been noticed by the OP, developers disappear and with that so does support and updates. This is not an issue unique to IPB: you notice it because the community is considerably smaller. How many times have people not updated their WordPress or Joomla! sites because of some stupid plugin that hasn't been updated they can't live without? It happens all the time! The statistics cited about the number of plugins for other platforms is moot until you filter the number of them that are not abandoned and are compatible with the latest releases.

I think IPS is keenly aware of their own developer community issues. They know the issues with developing for their software better than anyone. All readings on 4.0 to date seem to want to fix this and are showing promising progress to that end goal. The move to decouple the 'Core' is a promising to address these concerns as well. I anxiously await what licensing and costs models will accompany that. If done well it should help bring more developers into the fold.

Ultimately, however, there is a stigma associated with 'Commercial' software and people who need sites developed associate their needs with free software solutions like WordPress and Joomla!, without any knowledgable insight into paid solutions that may actually fit their needs better. Its an odd culture of 'free or bust' without any consideration or knowledge of the 3rd party costs and long-term issues associated with it. For a time, I tried to push IP.Content for some websites I was developing, but no one wanted to pay for it. Despite showing that I could save money on the implementation via fewer labor hours, the call for Joomla! was based on the knowledge that they could dump me after-the-fact and get almost any other outfit to pick up support on the site. That was not true of IP.Content, which most other groups would simply look at and say 'we need to redo it'. How does IPS fix that sort of double-edged sword? I don't know, but that's what they're up against.

I think IPS is doing exactly what they should be doing. The premise of the OP, that IPS is spread too thin, I think is a little off base once the external factors are considered. The apps are what they are and the community is what it is. There's plenty of room for improvement, and 4.0 *should* be a step in the right direction. Has the timeline for 4.0 been what I wanted or expected? Probably not. Has the communication been adequate? Probably not, but I just take it in stride and worry about other things that actually matter.

Keith

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Take a step back guys because the software and service was hundreds of times better when you took real pride in your software and it wasn't just all about the dollars...

Can you tell me why you think we think that way? I'd love to know what we've done or said that leads you to believe that.

I can promise you, it's not "just about the dollars". We're all very passionate about what we do and want to make the best products possible. The fact that we're rewriting IPS 4 from scratch and taking our time to make sure everything we add to it has value and is well written proves that it's not just about the money. We'd have made much more money merely slapping in a few extra features to the IPB 3 framework and rebranding it for extra sales.

Feel free to PM me if you want to talk about this in private.

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I still think they take great pride in their software and TBH rewriting IPS 4.0 is an incredibly gutsy business decision but the market is just changing to more of a web app and service-oriented structure. Writing applications for IPS isn't that fun or easy.. there is a lot you have to know in order to pull off a simple app.

For my site Stackoverflow killed us.. forums turned out not to work as well in our format as their Q&A format (which I'm sure Matt has some familiarity with as a developer).

I do think IPS software is actually better than a lot of stuff out there, which is why I'm advocating so hard for them to find ways to bring more developers into the fold through making the platform adopted more widely by releasing free developer licenses for core.

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Same goes for me.

More plugins = lots of missing features?

Honestly, I wish IPS software out-of-the box was set up as a programmer's development forum. This really is the best approach to take. They should integrate an IDE to test code right in forum posts, make all posts non-wysiwyg based so it doesn't mess up code formatting, allow individual forum posts to be archived to github as gists. Instead of "Downloads" make it a source code respository with true versioning capabilities that also hooks up to something like subversion or github. Kill the gallery as it isn't needed much for programming..

This is what they should do out of the box for all IPS distributions.

Now doesn't that sound silly? This is why plugins are necessary.. because every site is different. You wouldn't want the same type of site I want. More plugins is a sign of developer support for a platform.. this is a *good thing*. The hard problem is to ensure that the *good* plugins bubble up and get more recognition than the not-so-good plugins.

Every good platform needs good apps.. the problem is when the only apps you can rely on are from IPS. The rest become risky bets. Right now the web is full of new service startups.. but these startups also can go bust at any day. What is important is to build your software to work with services that look like they have the longevity to be around quite a while. The exact same thing happens when you build your site up.

The reality of the marketplace is that nobody there makes enough in sales to justify doing app development full time. IPS has to create a BIGGER market. If there is it would have to be because they are maintaining a huge number of plugins/apps. This means that if you use someone's app, you can reasonably expect it to fail to work on the next IPS upgrade.

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I agree with Mat on many different levels.

Having this many apps may sound good but what good do they actually serve ?

Can Ip.Nexus really compete with Magento , of course not. They have years of experience on developing a e-commerce solution on top of that they have a huge developer program. Nearly all Magento powered websites are customised from one to another by different ways. That shows the power of Magento , not weakness.

Why spend resources on a useless add on like Nexus which has hidden code compared to Magento and other e-commerce scripts which is another joke.

Just a simple question , why do you think developers leaving vBulletin heading to Xenforo ?

I believe 2 main reasons :

  1. Xenforo may lack features but what they offer are carefully built and implemented where as IPB has tons of options but most of them are half baked. This many features also scare away developers because they don't want to develop something IPB can add to their ecosystem without making a lot of planning.
  2. Xenforo is cheaper for a developer to get their hands on. Where as IPB costs a lot for a freelancer developer which is another critical thing.
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I agree with Mat on many different levels.

Having this many apps may sound good but what good do they actually serve ?

Can Ip.Nexus really compete with Magento , of course not. They have years of experience on developing a e-commerce solution on top of that they have a huge developer program. Nearly all Magento powered websites are customised from one to another by different ways. That shows the power of Magento , not weakness.

Why spend resources on a useless add on like Nexus which has hidden code compared to Magento and other e-commerce scripts which is another joke.

Just a simple question , why do you think developers leaving vBulletin heading to Xenforo ?

I believe 2 main reasons :

  1. Xenforo may lack features but what they offer are carefully built and implemented where as IPB has tons of options but most of them are half baked. This many features also scare away developers because they don't want to develop something IPB can add to their ecosystem without making a lot of planning.
  2. Xenforo is cheaper for a developer to get their hands on. Where as IPB costs a lot for a freelancer developer which is another critical thing.

Must admit I am a bit stunned by your reply.

Considering you QA for IPS, I am surprised that you consider Nexus to be useless. How can you test it with those thoughts?

Nexus is used by IPS to sell IP.Board and all the company to operate. So hardly useless. Yes the code is hidden (IMHO it is to stop people copying code only), but that does not make it useless.

One of the reasons why I originally came to IPS and ruled out VB, Xenforo and other products is that IPS offer a suite.it means that I can take money, create databases, make pages, run a forum etc. using one product and not have to worry about why X is not working with Y. I do not need to go an hunt for third party apps. Scripts yes, but not apps. A very big plus.

Megento might be great, but that product is probably more than many want. Can it sell and control adverts in IP.Board for example? It also costs far more than IP.Nexus.

I hope that IPS do not drop any of their products, it would be a shame. I would be surprised if they do as they use all the products here - or are you saying that IPS should use third party apps here at http://community.invisionpower.com ?

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Must admit I am a bit stunned by your reply.

Considering you QA for IPS, I am surprised that you consider Nexus to be useless. How can you test it with those thoughts?

Nexus is used by IPS to sell IP.Board and all the company to operate. So hardly useless. Yes the code is hidden (IMHO it is to stop people copying code only), but that does not make it useless.

One of the reasons why I originally came to IPS and ruled out VB, Xenforo and other products is that IPS offer a suite.it means that I can take money, create databases, make pages, run a forum etc. using one product and not have to worry about why X is not working with Y. I do not need to go an hunt for third party apps. Scripts yes, but not apps. A very big plus.

Megento might be great, but that product is probably more than many want. Can it sell and control adverts in IP.Board for example? It also costs far more than IP.Nexus.

I hope that IPS do not drop any of their products, it would be a shame. I would be surprised if they do as they use all the products here - or are you saying that IPS should use third party apps here at http://community.invisionpower.com ?

Did you ever compared Magento or other e-commerce scripts with Nexus ?

The answer to your question lies on the answer on my above question directed to you..

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