IPB Breaks the One-Document-Per-URL Paradigm

[Enkidu]

Hiya

If you've been watching the recent changes in SEO and following good practices of web design/development, then you already know what the "One-Document-Per-URL Paradigm" is.

Let me explain it to you. This is my profile page. Take a good look at the URL:

http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/

Now click on my "Files" tab, IPB will use Ajax to retrieve a list of my files but the URL hasn't changed. It still reads:

http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/

In fact every tab there has the same URL. So if you want to bookmark my files then you will get my profile default page instead. This is an example of overusing AJAX and screwing SEO and user experience at the same time because users won't be able to bookmark, favorite, or share a specific tab from my profile because they all have the same URL.

Let's dive deeper

right click the "Files" tab and grap the URL, it will be

http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/?tab=idm

Now we seem to have a single URL that points to my files but:

1- The URL http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/?tab=idm&I_love_you has the following properties:

<meta name="identifier-url" content="http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/?tab=idm&amp;amp;I_love_you" />
		
		
			<meta property="og:url" content="http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/?tab=idm&amp;amp;I_love_you" />

not really a shiny example of a good SEO implementation but can you see TWO impersands rather than one as you would expect? where does the second one come from? Let's make them two:

http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/?tab=idm&&I_love_you. Again the source has:

<meta name="identifier-url" content="http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/?tab=idm&amp;amp;&amp;amp;I_love_you" />
		
		
			<meta property="og:url" content="http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/?tab=idm&amp;amp;&amp;amp;I_love_you" />

2- The description tag is the same.

3- the title tag seems to stuff keywords that in total means nothing. Enkidu - Viewing profile: Files - Invision Power Board. Can you make anything out of this title? Suppose someone post a link such as this one to FB. Would you have the slightest idea what to expect?

Conclusion: please stop overusing AJAX, nobody cares if the your profile tabs load with big whistles attached to it. We simply need functioning board which is easy to use. That's all.

[GreenLinks]

Just a simple message : I disagree with everything posted here ,

Sorry don't have time to post detailed response.

[MisterPhilip]

Let me explain it to you. This is my profile page. Take a good look at the URL:

http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/

Now click on my "Files" tab, IPB will use Ajax to retrieve a list of my files but the URL hasn't changed. It still reads:

http://community.invisionpower.com/user/147321-enkidu/

I agree that the URL should change to reflect what tab you're on. This is also true with loading forums "View more replies" - add the page number to the URL so I can link it to someone else.

3- the title tag seems to stuff keywords that in total means nothing. Enkidu - Viewing profile: Files - Invision Power Board. Can you make anything out of this title? Suppose someone post a link such as this one to FB. Would you have the slightest idea what to expect?

Yes, I'd think "I'm viewing Enkidu's files on their profile on an Invision Power Board". I'd prefer the title rewritten slightly to: "Viewing Enikdu's profile: Files - Invision Power Board", but I can still make out what it is trying to tell me now.

[Enkidu]

Just a simple message : I disagree with everything posted here ,

Sorry don't have time to post detailed response.

You disagree with everything? that means you disagree with the one-doc-per-url paradigm? AND you disagree with multiple pages all have the same description and title tags which, by the by, we all get in the HTML improvement section of Google Webmaster tools.

But the worst of your mass disagreement is still to come. Suppose your friend posted a link to your forum. As webmasters, we like that! we love backlinks! backlinks mean better ranking but alas! your friend made a mistake and wrote the URL as forumurl/user/34-user/randomstring. Now since forumurl/user/34-user/randomstring is NOT equivalent to forumurl/user/34-user/, your backlink is worth nothing.

[Enkidu]

I agree that the URL should change to reflect what tab you're on. This is also true with loading forums "View more replies" - add the page number to the URL so I can link it to someone else.

Yes, I'd think "I'm viewing Enkidu's files on their profile on an Invision Power Board". I'd prefer the title rewritten slightly to: "Viewing Enikdu's profile: Files - Invision Power Board", but I can still make out what it is trying to tell me now.

yeah that because you already know IPB and you already know what a profile page is, but people who haven't the slightest idea about IPB and its profile structure would have a hard time deciphering that "sentence".

1- first it doesn't tell you the relationship between me and invision power board. Maybe something like: Viewing Enikdu's profile: Files on Invision Power Board is better

2- put the keyword at, or near the start because people don't pay much attention to words at the end or middle. the keywords here are: enkidu and files. So: Enkidu's Files on (or at?) Invision Power Board. See?

[GreenLinks]

You disagree with everything? that means you disagree with the one-doc-per-url paradigm? AND you disagree with multiple pages all have the same description and title tags which, by the by, we all get in the HTML improvement section of Google Webmaster tools.

But the worst of your mass disagreement is still to come. Suppose your friend posted a link to your forum. As webmasters, we like that! we love backlinks! backlinks mean better ranking but alas! your friend made a mistake and wrote the URL as forumurl/user/34-user/randomstring. Now since forumurl/user/34-user/randomstring is NOT equivalent to forumurl/user/34-user/, your backlink is worth nothing.

Will type from ipad so again response will be short.

Your logic is completely wrong , first of all User profile is not a content page . A good seo guy will always choose to block forum profiles via robots.txt as they hold zero value.
Second : displayed content on profiles are all links to actual content so again have less importance and displaying them through tabs reduce the amount of displayed junk information. Also for your information Google and other SE's are clever enough to follow ajax dynamic tabs so any information within tabbed display can be indexex ( if it holda actual content tha is not a link to another page )
Thirdly : i am webmastering over 15 years now and i will not enter into a Seo debate whom runs a seo board as my own past exprience clearly prooves that they all ends with useless arguements.

One more thing , the paradigm you support is described wrong by you ad it is clear you understand it completely wrong.

I checkec Ipb seo flaws supplied suggestions in past however user profiles on ipb give me zero worries as said before User Profiles hold no actual content.

[Enkidu]

Your logic is completely wrong

what a perfect argument! can you at least support your claims with any sort of evidence? just saying XYZ is wrong is not an argument.

first of all User profile is not a content page

so as your board index page ... if we are to follow your logic. but let's follow your logic anyway

A good seo guy will always choose to block forum profiles via robots.txt as they hold zero value.

A good SEO expert will ALWAYS avoid page sculpting. That means avoid using nofollow to internal page and/or using robots.txt to achieve the same thing

the reason behind that, IMHO, is that people may link to your profile page. Let's suppose you have this expert guy and people from all over the net recommend contacting her/him via linking to his profile page. Now think of the wasted pagerank flaw caused by such blockage. But if your logic is true and all then why does vBseo allow profile pages to be crawled?

In fact one of the only times Google recommended using robots.txt to block pages that are not duplicates or contains sensitive info is when you'll have infinite number of dynamically generated pages that will trap googlebot forever such as vB calender

[GreenLinks]

Sorry dude , as i said , i am not going to enter to a SEO debate. I know what i am doing and telling . Develoing vBSEO ( the most succesful SEO tool that was ever created ) for over 6-7 years gave me pretty enough information . Supplying Matt's video's will not change anything as i told you , your logic is wrong. Have a good day :)

[Enkidu]

Sorry dude , as i said , i am not going to enter to a SEO debate. I know what i am doing and telling . Develoing vBSEO ( the most succesful SEO tool that was ever created ) for over 6-7 years gave me pretty enough information . Supplying Matt's video's will not change anything as i told you , your logic is wrong. Have a good day :smile:

how do you measure success? got any data? got any published paper? got any review article by a very respected author in the SEO niche? you don't have anything...and I'm not doing this to defend my topic here. I know IPS ... being a customer for a while now ... so I know how they deal with feedback.

The funny thing is that I'm talking from user experience point of view while you reply from authority point of view as if you're affiliated with Google or within the know circle.

the most succesful SEO tool that was ever created

:lol: he actually got me for a second but lolz. You see in the forums niche, people would buy anything...ANYTHING if you slap the word SEO on it. Just say SEO and people will go crazy and start spending money on a thing they don't need. This is what I'm trying to fight here. Focus on user experience not stupid SEO illusion especially if search engines will continue to change their algorithms.

The following is the IEEE search result for search engine optimization

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/searchresult.jsp?newsearch=true&queryText=search+engine+optimization&x=0&y=0

as you can see there are many! but nothing on VbSEO. What algorithm does vbseo use anyway? coz looking at these papers I can see different methodologies ranging from reverse engineering to neural networks to sis sigma...again which method does vbseo use?

[GreenLinks]

Create anything as close to success vBSEO achieved then continue to talk my friend. There are zillions of people like you around the world who knows everything but fail to create anything ;)

[Weppa333]

Like most forum software, IPB is bloated with extra features (requested by users, at least the ones they decided to listen to).

It is part of our job, as forum owners, to de-bloat IPB,VB, XF or whatever, to suit or needs.

Removing ajax comes to mind. Proper SEO too.

Remove stuff nobody uses ( status updates anyone ? :) )

You'll never get a "ready to use" product that will create you a killer site (otherwise everyone else would have the same killer site) and I believe many users expect the perfect killer site once they finished paying their licence. And you'll never get a search engine OPTIMIZED website if you simply use the exact same code as the other thousands of IPB customers.

WORK ON YOUR WEBSITES AND CUSTOMIZE THEM - USING IPB AS A (solid) BASE.

PS

I can live with a few wrong URLs in profile pages :smile:

[Enkidu]

Create anything as close to success vBSEO achieved then continue to talk my friend. There are zillions of people like you around the world who knows everything but fail to create anything ;)

but I'm not a web developer/designer. Although I have a PhD in AI, I don't do web development. Simply you can't do AI using php. and as for success, my CV reads BT, Sagem and RAF as previous employers. Yours reads: SJV Bv = grasscity.com lolz. But how did we deviated to personal resume? The question was: got anything to support your claims. so far you showed nothing...apart from "I'm the man" argument.

who knows everything...blah blah

I thought your argument was I don't know anything not that I'm jack of all trades...must've missed something!

[Marcher Technologies]

....you all do bleeding realize it degrades... right(the ajax)?

That said... there should be a canonical/redirect/something there, and it has little to do with ajax, that url is wrong(nice rant btw).

Kindly report the bug.

[Soniceffect]

.

Remove stuff nobody uses ( status updates anyone ? :smile: )

Agree with everything you said on removing bloat other than this. Its simply was general users expect these days unless you are on a tech site

[ZakRhyno]

Create anything as close to success vBSEO achieved then continue to talk my friend. There are zillions of people like you around the world who knows everything but fail to create anything ;)

I'm not discrediting your application you work on nor I'm saying you don't know your stuff but I'm still learning on things and like to ask why you said what your said. We can talk PM if you like.

[Cyrem]

Oh look another SEO argument... nothing to see here... moving on.

[Enkidu]

....you all do bleeding realize it degrades... right(the ajax)?

That said... there should be a canonical/redirect/something there, and it has little to do with ajax, that url is wrong(nice rant btw).

Kindly report the bug.

first time I agree with MT. Not going to report the bug though.

[Mark]

I'm going to set aside SEO as I see Mert has already posted in here, and I have no doubt he is in a better position to comment on SEO than me (despite the name-calling going on in this thread, which, incidentally, is not appropriate and quite childish) :smile:

However, I would like to talk about HTTP. I've not read much about "The One-Document-Per-URL Paradigm", but from what I understand, it isn't a new thing (though that name for it is) - it's just an explanation of how the HTTP protocol is supposed to be implemented, and you seem to have either misunderstood or aren't familiar with that.

HTTP requests are made for a particular resource - so when you make a HTTP GET request to;

http://community.inv.../147321-enkidu/

You're requesting the resource /user/147321-enkidu/ on community.invisionpower.com - in this case the resource represents enkidu's profile.

Endiku's profile consists of a list of content he's made. However, you can't just plonk all that data on the page. The queries needed for each are too intensive to run them all before you load the profile - it would be unacceptable resource usage.

So, you utilise the query string. Adding the ?tab=idm isn't a new URL - you're just passing a query string. So you're still requesting the resource /user/147321-enkidu/ on community.invisionpower.com, but you're also giving the server a little extra piece of information about how you want it to provide that resource (tab=idm). So when you do that, IP.Board does exactly that - it still gives you Enkidu's profile, and it has slightly modified the way it presents that resource to you, by making the Downloads tab the default.

That is exactly how one is supposed to make websites work.

We have then enhanced the user-experience by making an AJAX request to pull in this new data and modify the DOM of the page you're viewing, rather than forcing a new page load. It has a fallback to the traditional method to serve those with JS disabled, and so search engines can index the content on those tabs. That is a textbook example of how to use JavaScript properly. Though MisterPhillip is correct in that this could be made even better by modifying the URL that the user's browser displays after clicking those links.

To answer your specific points from your first post:

1. Those tags are specific to Facebook's sharing functionality and hold no value to anything else.

2. You're right, we should modify the description.

3. Yes that makes perfect sense to me. We include so much information for SEO purposes. We always include in the title the community name, title of the thing you're viewing, and title of the container that thing is in. So if you search "Endiku Files" or "Invision Files Endiku" - that page comes up in results ;) Additional words like "on" are unnecessary. If you take a look at Google's own sites, you'll see this is exactly how they structure their titles most of the time.

[Mat Barrie]

To answer your specific points:

From your first post:

1. Those tags are specific to Facebook's sharing functionality and hold no value to anything else.

2. You're right, we should modify the description.

3. Yes that makes perfect sense to me. We include so much information for SEO purposes. We always include in the title the community name, title of the thing you're viewing, and title of the container that thing is in. So if you search "Endiku Files" or "Invision Files Endiku" - that page comes up in results ;) Additional words like "on" are unnecessary. If you take a look at Google's own sites, you'll see this is exactly how they structure their titles most of the time.

For what it's worth, it is a bit weird that it looks like the URLs there are urlencoded twice...

[Marcher Technologies]

For what it's worth, it is a bit weird that it looks like the URLs there are urlencoded twice...

For reference, that is exactly what raised it from suggestion to bug.

http://community.invisionpower.com/resources/bugs.html/_/ip-board/bad-profile-urlsseo-r40687

[Jinkler]

[GreenLinks]

A good read for you Matt http://www.seomoz.org/ugc/can-google-really-access-content-in-javascript-really

[TSP]

I often find myself in the need of linking to specific queries on a page, so it would be nice if the url could update when clicking on something that does something "ajaxy".

I don't like pages where everything is ajax and the urls are not supplied or updated.