Marketplace - suggestions for regulating price vs quality

[Freeborne]

The 'price vs quality' of apps in the Marketplace is obviously a very important matter in the minds of your customers, if you go off the popularity and strong opinions found in Gerry5509's thread about boycotting paid apps:
http://community.inv...__fromsearch__1


I, like many other IPS customers are not overly concerned with the existance of Paid Apps, just those that are over-priced for what they are.

From what I can see there is no price regulating to ensure a 'fair price' is charged.

• Every item in the Marketplace could have a "Value for Money" voting option, so anyone who views the mod can determine if it looks over-priced and vote between 1-10 (5 being fair price). Anyone should be able to vote, not just those (suckers) who bought it realising they were ripped off. Customers shouldn't have to suffer before the rest of us can be warned.
  

Expensive apps could require a 'developer license' which they have to pay for. This will have several benefits:

• Only experienced developers will release expensive mods (i.e quality developers, not people still learning).
• They will likely release several free/cheap mods leading up to this as they are still learning and trying to earn a good community reputation.
• It will stop amatuer developers from flooding the market with over-priced low-quality mods.
• Buyers will have greater confidence in getting a good product
  

I'm not sure I can openly criticize particular mods or name the modders, but spend a minute looking at "Paid Apps" only, particularly those with less than 5 downloads. This is where you will find most of the low-quality mods. Most customers are smart enough to not buy them, but it still looks bad and will scare away your customers (also makes us more cautious of paying for quality mods). Some of these modders are charging for basic logos and buttons which would take a few minutes to make. Some of the IPB skins are also relatively expensive and have been clearly built to only serve the author's niche website.

Posting in someone's Support Topic to criticize their pricing I'm sure will be frowned upon by IPS (possibly deleted?) so at least the 'Value for Money' system will give everyone an anonymous (non-flaming) way of influencing the price.

Thanks for reading.


P.S: If someone else participates in this thread with their ideas or opinions, and they go over the line can you please moderate their post (edit/delete) and not close this thread, denying others from providing civilized input?

[PSNation]

If you make developers pay for a license they price of the apps will go up. Its common sense. If the fruit going to your supermarket suddenly has to go through a new farmer check by the government the farmer will increase his prices

[HeadStand]

Speaking as a developer....

The "Value for Money" isn't really fair, especially if you're going to be opening that up to people who haven't paid for the product. A lot of what you pay for is support - which of course, is the developer's time. From personal experience I can tell you that it's always the mods with the lowest prices (or rather, the customers who pay the least), that need the most support. It's Murphy's Law, and somehow this situation finds its way into any kind of business. That being said, asking people to judge whether someone's time is priced fairly, well.... it just doesn't make sense to me. If you don't want to pay the price, don't buy it.

I DO like the idea of a Developer's License, but not as something you have to pay for. I'm assuming that IPS would not be able to make this license too expensive (otherwise the developers would be up in arms), but even so, just because something is paid doesn't mean the person paying for it is good, it just means they have some extra cash. If you really wanted to restrict paid apps to good developers, you would need some kind of certification, and some requirements. For example:

• Minimum X number of free mods
• Minimum X reputation
• Must be active contributor for X amount of time (you can't just flood the marketplace with free apps and expect to be able to start selling)
  

To me, that seems like a fair solution to both developers and customers. The good developers will have no issues meeting the requirements, and anyone who can't keep up shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Charles]

IPS is not going to regulate prices. We're not some sort of communist regime ;)

[HeadStand]

I'm not sure I can openly criticize particular mods or name the modders, but spend a minute looking at "Paid Apps" only, particularly those with less than 5 downloads. This is where you will find most of the low-quality mods.

Just one more comment regarding the above statement - if you're looking at the number of downloads, you also have to look at the submission date. Sometimes it takes months for a mod to take off, sometimes it's an immediate hit. One of my paid mods was released on December 23, 2010. After 1 month, it had 5 purchases. It now has 35. Sometimes it just takes a little patience. ;)

On the other hand, if a mod is sitting on the market for 6 months and still has less than 5 purchases, then yeah... something isn't quite right. Either the price is too high, the author has a bad rep, OR... it could just be that there's no interest. I guess in that case you should really look at the author's other files, see if it's a trend.

[AndyF]

I'd agree, we cannot dictate pricing to mod authors, that would just be wrong. They have to determine this themselves, factoring in various criteria such as how long it took to write / potential sales / how much support time is likely to be needed etc.

Ultimately the consumers, ie the customers who are looking to purchase said paid files will vote on their pricing with their wallets (well, Paypal), if the price is too high they won't buy. A lack of sales will clearly indicate to the mod author that something is amiss.

[Freeborne]

Government and industry watchdogs regulate prices throughout the world in various markets and products. It's part of maintaining a good economy (excluding corrupt government)

Obviously not EVERYTHING is regulated or our economy would collapse under the complexity of administration alone, but yes you could use terms like 'communist regime' to a degree then :-p Supply/Demand is not foolproof concept that works in every market, and I think the IPS Marketplace is one example.

I'm not proposing IPS sets the price, as I read the previous post that IPS has no intention of ever doing this. Customers however, need a way to help influence pricing, without paying with their wallets as the current environment alone should clearly tell you IT ISN'T WORKING ;-)

1. There still isn't many modders in the community and 'competition' is very rare. Supply and demand works in an open market with multiple competitors. Monopoly's allow price-fixing by the supplier... NOT a good thing.
2. "Buy it, or don't buy it - we don't care" isn't a very caring or forward-thinking attitude for IPS to take. This might sound a harsh comment but read some of the IPS Staff posts, and imagine how it is intepreted by those on the other side of your viewpoint.


If I can sell 100 units for $100, or 1000 units for $10 (and my production costs are neglible), which is better? Modders aren't selling drugs but mods which generally benefit the community. The more customers who use these mods, the better off our community (and your customers) will be. Encouraging that 'sweet' spot in pricing is not something 'average Joe developer' is capable of. Some pointers, benchmark pricing examples, etc would at least 'help'.


@PSNation:
Yes, this might be an unfortunate side affect, however I would rather pay $5 more for a good quality mod if it means not seeing many $20 mods that are poor quality made by 'overnight' modders (here today, gone tomorrow). If modders have to pay (or do some kind of training) to get a Developer License (to allow them to charge over $15 as an example) it will certainly reduce the amount of over-priced "basic" apps that only sell 5 or so units. To minimize price inflation IPS could refund the 'establishment fee' if they sell over 20 units.

Scenario:
If you release a 'basic' mod for $30 now, you might only get 1 or 2 people (with money to throw away) that buy it. There might be 30 other customers who would really like this basic mod but don't want to pay more than $5 (let's pretend everyone agrees it's over-priced). Now if the establishment fee was $100, then the modder never makes his money back! (IPS could make it that they just keep the first $100 of sales and not actually 'charge' the modder). If the modder released this basic app @ $5, no establishment fee is necessary, and 30 purchases might result in $150. Here 30 people benefit from the mod, not 2 and the modder gets more money for selling it cheaper. A little harsh, a little controlling, but the community's interests should (IMHO) come before an individuals. This will only cause an outcry among modders because IPS has established a 'common practice' of modders charging for their work, not something commonly seen in other forum modding communities which don't make it so easy to sell your work.


In regards to farmers rising prices, I'm more comfortable comparing retail stores so in my analogy I say that those that cannot remain competitive, go out of business. If you cannot 'economically' produce mods, you don't sell them until you're a good developer (like Michael) and can make high quality mods while charging reasonable prices for them (eg: his Video Galleries I just purchased).


@HeadStand
Yes I wasn't looking at recent submissions (no offense but you're just stating what's common sense).
"Value for Money" isnt' fair? Neither are over-priced apps or the current 'feedback' system that waits until customers have paid their money and discover the mod lacks basic features, is bug-ridden, and support from the author is poor? How many people purchase a mod and request support then realise the Author is not helpful? 1 in 10? eBay has a Buyer/Selling rating system, why not here? This will further encourage developers to release free/cheap mods to earn a good repuation before releasing $50 apps.

For example:

• Minimum X number of free mods
• Minimum X reputation
• Must be active contributor for X amount of time (you can't just flood the marketplace with free apps and expect to be able to start selling)
  

To me, that seems like a fair solution to both developers and customers. The good developers will have no issues meeting the requirements, and anyone who can't keep up shouldn't be there in the first place.

I agree with this completely.




Finally, some kind of 'establishment fee' pricing 'bracket' might also be viable option. Essentially the more units you sell the less you're taxed. The idea being that IPS wants your mod to benefit as many people as possible, while giving financial incentive for you to charge less.
e.g:
Price = $2, Establishment Fee = $0.
Price = $20, Establishment Fee = $100
Price = $50, Establishment Fee = $500

@ $2, you get profit from your first sale
@ $20, you must sell 6 before you see any profit
@ $50 you must sell 11 units before you see any profit

If you double your minimum selling threshold (sell 10 units @ $20) you get half your establishment fee refunded as a bonus. Sell 4x the threshhold and get it all back.

I'm sure someone will come up with a better, more accurate formula but you get the general idea anyway.

[Aisha]

My next hook will be ridiculously overpriced because of this thread. Stay tuned.

[AndyF]

Regarding "poor" or non existent support, we may remove file where there's no support (as indicated in the guidelines agreed to by the submitter) if its deemed to be needed although active customers are able to browse through the support topics for each modification and see what the support from the author is like before a purchase.

[bfarber]

The term "over priced" is entirely opinion. You may not like the statement, but frankly it's true and it's common sense - if you don't feel something is priced right, don't buy it. There is absolutely no reason we should tell the developer to lower the price because someone else feels it's priced too high.

As stated, we are not going to start fixing prices in the marketplace.

[Freeborne]

Over-priced may be an 'opinion' but if it is shared by vast majority, is it as good as fact? If the opinion is shared by large number of your customers do you still ignore it because it isn't fact.

Example 1:

If you're from the 1% your biased opinion would "he's a top bloke". 99% of the others would disagree. A 3rd party (who never met the guy) would say (statistically) he's a jerk. Perhaps, as developers you're from the 1% group?

One person might be a jerk to 99% of the people he knows, and top bloke to 1%. Is he a jerk or a top bloke?

Example 2:

No, that's just a matter of opinion shared by 90% of males

Megan Fox is attractive!

$30 for a skin might be over-priced to the 1000 people that want it, so only 10 people buy it.
Of those 10 people, it was 'affordable' but not necessarily 'fairly priced'.

Look at IPS Marketplace, comparing 'Views' to 'Purchases', under both Paid vs Free to get an idea what I mean.

Also, look how few 'Reviews' there are. To me this shows the current 'Feedback' system doesn't work, and if something is over-priced, buggy, support is bad, etc than customers aren't being warned about it enough.

There is also the 'Star Rating' system, but if you sort by that, you get the top result being someone with only 2 votes, both 5 out of 5 (2 friends?).


The "Submitter" side block could contain more info such as:
- Number of Paid mods by this author
- Number of Free mods by this author
- Author Overall Feedback Rating
- This mod Feedback Rating

Also, some tech magazines I read give games/hardware a rating (say out of 100%) and also break this down into catergories (Price, Speed, Performance, etc).
So Rating system could be broken down into:
- Support Rating
- Price Rating
- Functionality Rating

There is absolutely no reason we should tell the developer to lower the price because someone else feels it's priced too high.

I thought I explained several reasons why IPS should get involved although I never requested IPS react in the way you described. From my point of view I've illustrated several strong reasons why, and you've replied with "No you're wrong because I personally can't imagine a reason because I haven't giving it enough thought and not read all your posts". Sorry if that sounds rude and I honestly do apologize but I'm saying it anyway. I think my 'Establishment Fee' example was a good idea and that's not asking IPS to "tell developer's to lower their price" without twisting what I was saying.


Does voting with your wallet really work?

• How do you know how many people didn't buy it because it was over-priced? (because 1 in 100 people actually made a complaint in a thread?)
• Those that purchased it, don't necessarily think it was priced fairly, they just really needed it or have money to throw away.
  

As stated, I never suggested IPS enforce 'price fixing' but find a way to regulate pricing, particularly by giving customers more ways of influencing the prices. More eBay-like feedback & rating at least (and IMHO an Establishment Fee or Retainer type system).

[Ryan H.]

Also, look how few 'Reviews' there are. To me this shows the current 'Feedback' system doesn't work, and if something is over-priced, buggy, support is bad, etc than customers aren't being warned about it enough.

Reviews were only enabled a little over two weeks ago, in response to the very thread you linked in the opening post. For the time it's been around, I think it's making great progress. I also think reviews are more than enough to address your concerns regarding pricing, quality and support. That's their purpose.

There is also the 'Star Rating' system, but if you sort by that, you get the top result being someone with only 2 votes, both 5 out of 5 (2 friends?).

That's a bug, fixed in the upcoming Downloads 2.4.1. Until then, the 'top rated' block on the index weights ratings properly.

If you think a mod is priced too high, just send the author a message telling him as much. Maybe he'll offer you some arrangement. If he likes where it's priced and doesn't want to change, that's his own choice.

Believe me when I say no sort of anonymous "is this worth the price" rating system would work in any way whatsoever. My guess is the average rating would hover somewhere around, oh... one. If someone hasn't purchased a resource, they're not going to know what value it has. If they have, they're more than welcome to rate it, leave a review, request support or file a report if it's that bad.


On another note, any form of developer license, paid or free, would decimate the resource community.

[Mat B]

Regulating pricing is price fixing. And I also do not agree that there need to be more ways to influence pricing - you can choose to influence pricing by not buying the product, or you can contact the seller and let them know that you aren't happy with the price. These are the same options available to you if you were to walk into a WalMart or Target, neither of which offer an Establishment Fee or Retainer type system, or even ratings and feedback. Here at IPS, you can review a product if you buy it, peruse the support topic, contact the author directly, and rate the product. What more can be done?

(Disclaimer: views represented in this post are solely mine, and do not necessarily represent those of Invision Power Services, Inc)

[rsyvarth]

I am just going to respond to one section of your post because it just peeves me.

If I can sell 100 units for $100, or 1000 units for $10 (and my production costs are neglible), which is better? Modders aren't selling drugs but mods which generally benefit the community. The more customers who use these mods, the better off our community (and your customers) will be. Encouraging that 'sweet' spot in pricing is not something 'average Joe developer' is capable of. Some pointers, benchmark pricing examples, etc would at least 'help'.

I can tell you right now I would rather sell 100 units for $100 each than 1000 for $10. The reason? Support. I would say a good 40-50% of the cost of my applications depend on how much support I am anticipating I will be giving for the application. I can probably handle support for 100 people reasonably well, but for 1000 people? There is no way. That is part of the reason I prefer to do custom work, you can get a good amount of profit, but you only have to support a single person, especially when my life gets hectic. It is much easier to tell 1 person that you won't be able to support them for a few days than 50 people.

[Freeborne]

Wasn't aware how recent the Rating system was so I will keep an eye on the marketplace and see how I feel in a few months time. I'm yet to rate or provide public feedback on any mods I've purchased so I'm just as guilty.

Good point rsyvarth, although your Social Groups is not an 'overpriced' app IMHO, and I've seen only great support and lots of effort put in to it.
Still, only 48 purchases for an app that I would think many IPB owners could use.
How do you know, if you dropped the price by $20, that you wouldn't get 100 extra purchases?
50 customers, $2500 profit (minus taxing)
150 customers, $4500
Those figures could be a pipe-dream, but you and I don't really know that do we? Don't you want to know at what price you should charge to maximise your profits?

As a side-note, I'm one of the people who could use Social Groups (currently using it in vB) but the price is holding me off buying it (I've already spent twice what I have compared to vBsuite and each mod makes it harder for me to justify why I'm switching)

you can choose to influence pricing by not buying the product

I still don't think this works. As above, how does the Author know he's missing out on 20 customers because it's $5 over what they're willing to pay?
How about the previoulsy proposed "price rating' system, BUT ONLY the author can view the poll results?
Then the author can get feedback if he's priced it too highly, without being publicly flamed, or personally insulted via PM. If our votes are anonymous, we're also more likely to provide feedback.

In this situation, the author might release at $40. 2 months later he has 10 purchases, and 5000 views. In his 'private' poll he has 50 people 'voting' that they would buy it for $20. Wouldn't this be of benefit to authors and buyers?

[AndyF]

Regarding lack of feedback / reviews that's because not a lot of them have actually been submitted yet...

[Mat B]

I still don't think this works. As above, how does the Author know he's missing out on 20 customers because it's $5 over what they're willing to pay?

How about the previoulsy proposed "price rating' system, BUT ONLY the author can view the poll results?

Then the author can get feedback if he's priced it too highly, without being publicly flamed, or personally insulted via PM. If our votes are anonymous, we're also more likely to provide feedback.

In this situation, the author might release at $40. 2 months later he has 10 purchases, and 5000 views. In his 'private' poll he has 50 people 'voting' that they would buy it for $20. Wouldn't this be of benefit to authors and buyers?

Your idea strikes me as being considerably more flawed, unfortunately. If you provide people some anonymous way to indicate that they are not willing to pay and to "suggest a price", it's highly likely that rather than buying products, some individuals (I dare say, many individuals) will just run around "downvoting" prices in the expectation that they can get it cheaper.

If you don't like the price of something, do not buy it, and tell the author why not. Authors will value personally written, well thought out feedback considerably more than they will an anonymous click on a "too expensive" button. And frankly, if they respond to a suggestion that they rethink their pricing with public flaming or personal insults, you probably don't want to purchase off that person anyway. It's not hard to simply respond that they have considered your opinion but unfortunately will not be considering price changes at the time.

(Again, opinions do not represent IPS, so on so forth).

[• Jay •]

On another note, any form of developer license, paid or free, would decimate the resource community.

We certainly can't have any standards around here! It'd decimate the resource community!

What's that say about said resource community?

Just saying...

Now objection to a paid developer license I could foresee (selfishness is very predictable), but objection to a free license? That's just plain advocacy for incompetence.

[Martin A.]

Who is to decide what the definition of "expensive" is? With developers here based from most corners of the world, we all get different value for money.
Norway - where I live, is a very expensive country for foreigners, meaning that your 10 dollars aren't worth much if you were to come here (not even close to get a beer at a pub), but my 10 dollars can get me five (or probably more) in some other country.

Should I then adjust my prices to fit the rest of the globe, giving me something I wouldn't notice in my wallet? Or enough for a beer at the pub?

What I'm saying is the developers have to set a price that fits them. They can't sell their stuff for buttons and stickers if they want to make a profit, which I believe most of us wants.