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What will 3.2 hold?


Paranormalis

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Can't you tell us what they are so we can make plans?



ZenForo looks too bland to me, I hope IPB aren't making changes based off that.



I'm interested in what you are doing by 'modernizing the skin'. IPBs default skin is getting whiter and whiter and less appealing on the eyes, and if they carry on they're going to be less popular board of choice. Look at which ipb boards are popular, none that look like the default 3.1 skin without abit of colour put into it and the majority of users weren't keen on changes when making the upgrade to 3.0 from 2.3. And yes, I have looked into that, I waited almost a year checking other forum users reactions before making the move myself.




We announce upcoming changes in our blog when we are ready to do so. We will tell you our plans, when we are ready - just subscribe to our company blog if you want to be notified when we do.

What you are saying about the skin is, again, subjective. I've ready many many opinions on the internet that we have one of the best default skins in any forum software. I've ready many people say they don't like our skin at all. Such is the nature of an interface - some will like it, some won't, and that's why our interface is skinnable. :)

The changes you will see with our skin will not be *drastic* changes. We are modernizing our skin, we are not scrapping it and starting over. Again, however, if you wish to be notified when we start talking about specific changes feel free to subscribe to our blog. :)
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What you are saying about the skin is, again, subjective. I've ready many many opinions on the internet that we have one of the best default skins in any forum software. I've ready many people say they don't like our skin at all. Such is the nature of an interface - some will like it, some won't, and that's why our interface is skinnable. :)



The changes you will see with our skin will not be *drastic* changes. We are modernizing our skin, we are not scrapping it and starting over. Again, however, if you wish to be notified when we start talking about specific changes feel free to subscribe to our blog. :)



Its decent but room for improvement.
Just don't go the same way vbulletin have, their 4.0 skin is a shocker, I was a fan of their 3.0 skin but the new skin just looks so amateurish, and I notice every forums users are not happy after upgrading to 4.0.
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Well I have read through this forum and this is what I believe, XF is written by the same person who wrote VB 3 and at the moment there is a court case going on in California where he used to work, and In London where he resides and where XF is being written, so I find it amazing for anyone to purchase software, one that is still in Beta, and two it may be stopped from being sold if found guilty.

For me XF looks to babyish, no panash, ugly looking, and there is just nothing to it. The designers, do not listen to what is wanted, they force what they want in their software on their customers even if people have asked for the exact opposite, that to me is not the way to do business. This is why VB started going down hill, and then they walked away, to me they do not deserve any loyalty.

I believe IPS has the perfect balance, but for one shortfall, (Documentation) as yet they have not struck the balance between coders and first time code learners, but the software itself is perfectly balanced and top quality, the staff are very friendly, and the support is second to no one.

I am not swinging to any particular software, however I am known for being objective, and saying thank you for things I think are done well, So in conclusion I feel sorry for vB they were the most preferred software for business users and they filled that niche,
IPS are more orientated towards the general public and they have filled that niche very well and are growing still. XF I just don't see it taking off at all, yes at the moment its new so it will have followers who have moved over, who only a few months ago where shouting how good their IPS or VB software was.

I have IPS I have had since 2005 it does exactly what we want, if I can't get something to work, they will bend over backwards to fix it for me, even if I have broken it myself, so yes they have earned and deserve my loyalty and my money.

I certainly would never pay anyone for software that was new, not proven and still in beta, no matter how the code was written.

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I am sure they will and I look forward to it. But even Matt has admitted that currently the product has too many features that could and should be removed.


I am hoping that 3.2 will see a lot of useless features or outdated features that are no longer relevant, removed.



Forum software must refocus on what was and what is. Right now vBulletin is stuck in the 90's to early 2000's.


IPB is trying to catch up to what forum owners and users desire. But at the same time, they have to keep certain features because of the past versions.



If they were to get rid of 100% of all the useless or outdated features and then replace them with usable features for today's generation... forums could once again be a viable market.


Just because customers say they want extra features... doesn't mean IPS should listen.



Customers, as I have learned over the years, need to get their heads out of their rear ends and allow people to do their jobs as they deem best.



I am a customer of IPS and XF. But I consider that the developers understand what is best for the product and try, not to tell them what to do.




If you want a forum software with just the functions YOU need, code one yourself or hire one to code it for you.
The thing you must realize is that IPS, aswell as vB and XF, will put the needs of the many before 1 individual. Whichever software you go with you WILL end up with a forum with features you won't need. Features AREN'T BAD! Sure the more features, the more settings you'll have to set but they can't remove "useless" features just for you.

The good thing is that most features at least comes with a on/off setting.
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Well I have read through this forum and this is what I believe, XF is written by the same person who wrote VB 3 and at the moment there is a court case going on in California where he used to work, and In London where he resides and where XF is being written, so I find it amazing for anyone to purchase software, one that is still in Beta, and two it may be stopped from being sold if found guilty.



For me XF looks to babyish, no panash, ugly looking, and there is just nothing to it. The designers, do not listen to what is wanted, they force what they want in their software on their customers even if people have asked for the exact opposite, that to me is not the way to do business. This is why VB started going down hill, and then they walked away, to me they do not deserve any loyalty.



I believe IPS has the perfect balance, but for one shortfall, (Documentation) as yet they have not struck the balance between coders and first time code learners, but the software itself is perfectly balanced and top quality, the staff are very friendly, and the support is second to no one.



I am not swinging to any particular software, however I am known for being objective, and saying thank you for things I think are done well, So in conclusion I feel sorry for vB they were the most preferred software for business users and they filled that niche,


IPS are more orientated towards the general public and they have filled that niche very well and are growing still. XF I just don't see it taking off at all, yes at the moment its new so it will have followers who have moved over, who only a few months ago where shouting how good their IPS or VB software was.



I have IPS I have had since 2005 it does exactly what we want, if I can't get something to work, they will bend over backwards to fix it for me, even if I have broken it myself, so yes they have earned and deserve my loyalty and my money.



I certainly would never pay anyone for software that was new, not proven and still in beta, no matter how the code was written.




I'm not trying to fight for XenForo, it's capable of doing that itself.

  • Kier Darby, XenForo developer, was never employed in California for, or by Internet Brands / vBulletin Solutions
  • Development would not halt, should the court decided that Kier/XFL are guilty of the complaint. The jurisdictions are under the United Kingdom. That happening is going to be very difficult. The court here expects much more than the courts in the United States.
  • The designers do want the forum to become a kitchen sink. They've built a platform for things to be added. It's meant to be extensible, but not containing X, Y and Z features. They are listening to their customer base, but they are avoiding the situation that vBulletin and (maybe) IP.B are in now: bloat. They don't ignore their customers.
  • XF will probably take off, given that it is growing rather quickly. Well, more quickly than other platforms I've been with. A few vBulletin and IP.B customers I've been working with have expressed a great interest in XenForo. I won't release any data on this though.


Now for IPS.

I haven't had much experience with IPS, however, of the little I've had, it's been a very positive experience. The documentation is one of the better ones I've seen, but it could still be improved. I am a minimalist myself, so I would prefer to see less features in support of a greater experience. One thing I don't like is a piece of software that does it all. I feel that vBulletin was aimed more at the general public - when I first saw IP.B 3, I was overwhelmed - not in a good way.

For IP.B

My sole complaint at this specific time, is notifications. I don't like the way it's been implemented: the notifications loading time is longer than it should be. For inline notifications, you have to view it, then mark it as unread. Could this be changed? I want to simplify this just to one operation: viewing the inline notification sets it as read.
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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

The question remains, who needs all the extra features?


What are we trying to accomplish with our website or forum? Are all the added extra functionality worthwhile or worthless?


Each individual will have their own opinion about that.


This is an absolutely key point. From what I've seen, Invision designs to satisfy the edge cases requested by customers and not the largest number of end-users.

Good interface design focuses on the satisfying the largest number of end-users, prioritizing the edge cases, and providing ingenious solutions for them as well without making core features more difficult to use.

This requires doing some research into who, exactly, the end user is and what he or she can tolerate in terms of interface complexity. Getting priorities tossed around in customer forums does not serve this purpose.


....Forum software must refocus on what was and what is....



Just because customers say they want extra features... doesn't mean IPS should listen....


Agree completely, customers do not represent end-users, they represent their own, possibly inaccurate, beliefs about end-users.

...But I consider that the developers understand what is best for the product and try, not to tell them what to do.



This is where I disagree with you, Paranormalis. Individual developers don't have any better knowledge of end-users than customers do. They also need to get their heads out of their own orifices and do some research with actual end-users.

A company run by developers may very well run itself into the ground by ignoring what end-users want and can use. Adding complexity to an interface may be logically justified but decrease usability and, therefore, participation.

I've been involved in forums for, deity knows, 20-plus long years and from the beginning to the end, it's all about the posting.
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I felt compelled to respond to some points posted here.


This is an absolutely key point. From what I've seen, Invision designs to satisfy the edge cases requested by customers and not the largest number of end-users.



Good interface design focuses on the satisfying the largest number of end-users, prioritizing the edge cases, and providing ingenious solutions for them as well without making core features more difficult to use.



This requires doing some research into who, exactly, the end user is and what he or she can tolerate in terms of interface complexity. Getting priorities tossed around in customer forums does not serve this purpose.



We absolutely do not satisfy edge cases requested by customers as a matter of course. You probably could not fathom the number of suggestions we receive that we simply couldn't satisfy even if we wanted to. Sure, there are some edge cases we satisfy (such as WebDAV template editing in IP.Board 3.2), but in these cases we are adding value to the product by enabling those who enhance our product (in this case, by creating "skins" for our software) to work better and more efficiently. By doing this, the skinners can use our software easier for their purpose, producing better skins for other customers, there-by improving our software for everyone.

As a general rule, the functionality we add to our software is the most oft-requested functionality, and only after we have done extensive planning, contemplation and research into what needs to be accomplished and what the end result should be. Tagging (and the included topic prefix functionality) is a prime example. This has been requested for the better part of 2 years. We decided not to just slap something into the software to satisfy a single request for the feature. Instead, we gauged the needs, uses and desire for the functionality, we planned how to implement it in a manner that all applications (our own, as well as third party) can make use of it, and we spent time planning an interface that we feel makes the feature easy to use and understand. We expect to further polish and tweak it based on user feedback once it's "in the wild", but we think we have a solid base to work from now.

The problem with doing research into who the end user is, is that we have no single group of end users. Perhaps this is something that may be difficult to comprehend - I imagine someone in your position usually DOES have a specific end user they are targeting. In our industry, we sell highly customizable software that is used by millions of people, from grandma who just turned on her first computer to companies like O'Reilly that author books written for technically-minded people describing programming languages and other advanced things. We have *many* different end-users at the end of the day, and there are often no single solutions that cater best to all of them, so it's our job to find the middle ground that works best for the most number of people.



Agree completely, customers do not represent end-users, they represent their own, possibly inaccurate, beliefs about end-users.



Yes, this is true. We don't act upon single suggestions from a single customer, typically, either. I think it's important to remember, however, that while end-users USE our software, it is still our customers that purchase our software. At the end of the day, we do have to do our best to please our customers within our vision for the software, so we would never ignore what our customers are telling us they want or need. Yes, we do say no (or nothing) quite frequently, but there is a ton of valuable feedback in between the niche requests, and at the end of the day, we have to weigh it all up to make a product that best serves our customers' needs.



This is where I disagree with you, Paranormalis. Individual developers don't have any better knowledge of end-users than customers do. They also need to get their heads out of their own orifices and do some research with actual end-users.



A company run by developers may very well run itself into the ground by ignoring what end-users want and can use. Adding complexity to an interface may be logically justified but decrease usability and, therefore, participation.



I've been involved in forums for, deity knows, 20-plus long years and from the beginning to the end, it's all about the posting.




I can respect that you have a certain procedure you have followed for 20-plus long years, and it works in your business. What you are saying about user-testing is certainly not wrong, by any degree.

What you must remember, however, is that we don't cater to a single user. We gather tons of feedback from hundreds of different angles, niches, and levels of comprehension that we have to analyze. What you may consider the absolute best way to do something may not be the best approach for the next customer, and thus we have to make decisions that may not always fall in line with what one specific customer thinks. Keep in mind, however, that if we find dozens of our customers agree with points you are making (which is why we really like using an open feedback forum like this for discussion of our software), obviously we should be paying attention to what is said. We like to let the ideas put forth speak for themselves in this regard.

Please respect that we are not newcomers in the forum scene,. We have been doing this for a long time, and we believe that while we have room for improvement just as most companies do, we also believe we are on the right track with the direction our software is taking. The 3.0 series was an innovative rewrite of our software to satisfy many technical requirements, while providing a slew of new functionality and a new interface. 3.1 improved upon this, and 3.2 will further improve upon this.

You can talk about adding complexity to the interface, but unless you discuss specifically what complexity in the interface you are referring to, it doesn't do much good. What you find complex, the rest of our customers might find downright useful, practical and common. You need to identify specifically what is complex and confusing (as you did well [url=", even if we don't necessarily agree with all of your points) so that we know what you are referring to and what to focus on. Tagging every topic with "I've been an interface designer for 20 years" doesn't really make your points any more or less valuable, either. We're more concerned with what our customers find confusing, helpful, difficult, productive, etc. rather than what their specific professions are.


I just want to close with saying that I am not trying to be confrontational either. I think we both want the same thing at the end of the day - we want IP.Board to continue growing and to satisfy as many of our customers' needs as possible. All I wanted to point out was that what you are saying is not really as black and white as it may seem to you on the surface.
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