Why there is no social groups utillity developed by ips ?

[Josh]

Personally, I've always felt there is a place for a social group style feature in forums, but it's one of those things that would require very careful implementation. I think the biggest potential problem with this feature is that it fragments the conversation on your forum, by taking the conversation out of your main forums and into groups. A feature like this need a really good discovery system, to help you find groups and to find out what is going on in those groups, otherwise they'll only die out, while drawing people away from the forums.

The kind of features I think would be really nice are the ability to join/leave groups, set a group owner, and perhaps give the group a comment system, as opposed to a full on sub forum.

The main point I'm trying to make here though, is while I think it's a potentially good idea, it would require a lot of time and planning to make it work right. So even if we decided to add it today, it would be quite awhile before a feature like that was ready.

[Jυra]

I'm sure you want separate discussion areas to go with groups. Social groups takes discussion off the forum and into areas where limited members can make posts. Forums were designed to bring people together. A lot of forums don't have members who are into such kind of things (age, demographic, etc.) or aren't very active in member activity. My forum for example...wouldn't have any member created groups...

[STEWIE]

finally, thx for response,
@Mark allthow your response is an official one it is very unclear, maybe or maybe not.. nothing to understand about that
@Josh - i like very much your opinion and i am perfect ok with that, all thow in my opinion social groups are not braking apart the community , it gives the power to those who want to have a subforum , peoples with commun interests.
@Jυra- it is true, but also is true that no member who is part of a social groups is just interested there, and not in other groups of the main forum
We humans share many comun interest, as my self, i like sports,science,internet development,making the world a better place an so on, so you see, if i will have a social group called boxing, this not means that i am not interested in the main forum or another group.
To be more clear, social groups does not break apart your forum/community, it just completes it.

- as i wrote above, my main concern with mods developed by individuals is that i will have no guarantee whatsoever that i will have updates and bug fixes, am i right?
that is a main problem when choosing between vb and ipb,
i hope ipb will give me the tools in order to make my community better

[Razasharp]

Member created groups are important for large sites, and sites where there can be a lot of contentious topics.

When a site gets to a certain size it becomes too difficult to keep track of all new content. Who's got time to read through hundreds of new threads _every-day_ ? Maybe they're just interested in certain topics.

When does someone who keeps opposing a certain idea become a troll? We've all seen people get labelled as trolls when they keep posting against certain things (even tho, we as admins, know they're only expressing their opinion). Member created groups lets like-minded people get together and talk in 'peace'.

That's just two of the main benefits of member created groups and content filtering (such as filter by friends list).

I think IPS should start official threads discussing commonly suggested items like this - as it takes up too much time having to reply to every thread that crops about the topic... and we sure do get a lot about social groups ;)

[STEWIE]

@ Razasharp ,yes that is correct, but judging by my - 4 points reputation, i think that a community who doesn't apreciate the good ideas, doesn`t deserve them, i have started this subject and now i have - 4 rep because i told the ipb stuff @ Rikki from page 1, that if he is ips official i will throw away my license.. considering his opinion on communities.
So thank you ipb for responses, rikki keep up the good work at ips, and i will keep my ideas for me.
oh and by the way @loyalpk - say something usefull first then expect to receive something in return, your comments were not helping in any way the discussions, but i see no - 4 points reputation for you, so it is clear how things are working around here
nice atitude ipb community, bye!

[Ryan H.]

You are grossly overreacting.

IPS has to evaluate every suggestion based on its probable benefits and downsides. You've already gotten responses from at least three different IPS developers with their personal opinions on the matter [and, no, Rikki was not giving you the company's official and final stance]. You've already been told that it's quite possible that something of this sort will be included in future releases. You've also been told that such a feature is already available, NOW, from a private developer, if you really desire it. [Try it before you get your pants tied up about who actually made it--most of us are actually quite capable and take full responsibility for the things we make.]

I think this would be a great addition to IPB if it were done well. I trust IPS to do that, in time. I recognize that there are other features which they consider even more important in the grand scheme of things. I also recognize that there may be reasons why they would not include it in IPB, at least for the time being.

Do you really believe that disagreeing with your opinion about what constitutes a community really make them wrong?

[.Ian]

@ Razasharp ,yes that is correct, but judging by my - 4 points reputation, [size="6"]i think that a community who do not appreciate good ideas, do not deserve them[/size], i have started this subject and now i have - 4 rep because i told the ipb stuff @ Rikki from page 1, that if he is ips official i will throw away my license.. considering his opinion on communities.

So thank you ipb for responses, rikki keep up the good work at ips, and i will keep my ideas for me.

oh and by the way @loyalpk - say something usefull first then expect to receive something in return, your comments were not helping in any way the discussions, but i see no - 4 points reputation for you, so it is clear how things are working around here

nice atitude ipb community, bye!

I wouldn't worry to much about the negative rep - keep going and all will work itself out.

If you really are saying goodbye, then good luck and toss your licence my way.....

If not, stick around and discover how good IPB is and why all the staff work hard for their customers. We might not always agree with them, but that is our rights in the same way as they have a right to disagree with our comments.

[Rikki]

@ Razasharp ,yes that is correct, but judging by my - 4 points reputation, [size="6"]i think that a community who doesn't apreciate the good ideas, doesn`t deserve them[/size], i have started this subject and now i have - 4 rep because i told the ipb stuff @ Rikki from page 1, that if he is ips official i will throw away my license.. considering his opinion on communities.

So thank you ipb for responses, rikki keep up the good work at ips, and i will keep my ideas for me.

oh and by the way @loyalpk - say something usefull first then expect to receive something in return, your comments were not helping in any way the discussions, but i see no - 4 points reputation for you, so it is clear how things are working around here

nice atitude ipb community, bye!

We welcome feedback and suggestions, and as regular members here will tell you, IPS staff chip in and share thoughts and opinions too. Many say that's what makes us better than elsewhere :)

You aren't getting negative rep for your ideas. As you can see, several people support the idea. I would think the reason you're getting negative rep is the manner in which you're coming across. No-one has ruled out social groups. No-one has told you to stop making suggestions. No-one has said your contributions are unwelcome. We're merely discussing pros and cons.

You'll find everything works much better if you calm down, and join in the discussion in a non-confrontational way :)

[Energizer]

[size="4"]@ Rikki[/size] , are you an ipb official? please tell me, if you are, it means i can throw away my ipb license, if this is the official response, and the official understand of a community here, i give up..

did you know what a community means?

did you know what the title of the invision power website is?

"Invision Power - Community Forum, Blog, Gallery, CMS, and more - [size="7"]We are community experts[/size]"..

Please, but please confirm or infirm that your opinion is an official one, if so i give away my ipb license ( free/no charge)

I do not understand!
They have a license purchased ONLY because of social groups that do not exist?
They knew that before!

[loyals7]

oh and by the way @loyalpk - say something usefull first then expect to receive something in return, your comments were not helping in any way the discussions, but i see no - 4 points reputation for you, so it is clear how things are working around here

nice atitude ipb community, bye!

Why do people overreact/exaggerate Online ?

and you are getting negative rep here, because people didn't like you insulting the product that they believe is more than awesome. :wub:

If you notice i already have a license, i was just being sarcastic, and just trying to make you realize, that something that you might consider not worthy might be useful for so many others.

[The Geek]

Just to throw my hat in...

Based on my experience (which is A LOT with vB on large and diverse sites) - Social Groups are total fail so please don't use them as an example of this "must have feature" until you can link me at least 5 boards where social groups are an integral part of the site (I haven't seen 1 even mid sized board that has pulled it off). Social groups are almost ALWAYS tucked away with low visibility and even lower traffic.

Saying that, I am certain if IPS turned their hand at it, it would be pretty kick ass, but I'm a bit sceptical of it being any kind of priority (I too once thought Social Groups were the new Black but found... er... they weren't).

[Razasharp]

@ Razasharp ,yes that is correct, but judging by my - 4 points reputation, [size="6"]i think that a community who doesn't apreciate the good ideas, doesn`t deserve them[/size], i have started this subject and now i have - 4 rep because i told the ipb stuff @ Rikki from page 1, that if he is ips official i will throw away my license.. considering his opinion on communities.

So thank you ipb for responses, rikki keep up the good work at ips, and i will keep my ideas for me.

oh and by the way @loyalpk - say something usefull first then expect to receive something in return, your comments were not helping in any way the discussions, but i see no - 4 points reputation for you, so it is clear how things are working around here

nice atitude ipb community, bye!

In fairness to Rikki - he explicitly said that the opinion he was posting is just his, and not necessarily the official IPS stance on the topic. As you can see some other devs don't agree with him so it really is just his personal opinion.

I do however think devs should add a little line in bold at the end of posts in topics like this, because lets face it a lot of users like ghyghty, are going to get the wrong end of the stick. Perhaps something like:

Please note: these are just my personal opinions and not necessarily the official IPS or project managers stance on the topic (who may well hold a different opinion). Additionally, even if you find that I, or some other devs don't agree - we're always open to being persuaded... if you can put forward a compelling case. :)

[.Ian]

I guess in a way ip.converge is a big brother of social groups - the ability for people to join different forums, but keep within the same community. The only snag with this is that most sites cannot afford $49, $99 or $149 for each new community to be part of the family, so social groups are a compromise.

I have yet to see how the mod that is being written will work in reality, but if it does half of what I want out of social groups,I will be happy.


A lot of sites have community sites for clubs and enable each club to have it's own forum - that would be ideal if IPS could offer that without having to purchase multiple licences.

[Razasharp]

Just to throw my hat in...

Based on my experience (which is A LOT with vB on large and diverse sites) - Social Groups are total fail so please don't use them as an example of this "must have feature" until you can link me at least 5 boards where social groups are an integral part of the site (I haven't seen 1 even mid sized board that has pulled it off). Social groups are almost ALWAYS tucked away with low visibility and even lower traffic.

Saying that, I am certain if IPS turned their hand at it, it would be pretty kick ass, but I'm a bit sceptical of it being any kind of priority (I too once thought Social Groups were the new Black but found... er... they weren't).

That's the fault of vB's implementation _not_ social groups itself. Just look at all the sites out there that have member created groups that flourish. If you need a list, just go to drupal and find their organic groups module and see how those sites use it.

Here's just one example: http://www.popsugar.com/community/groups

(yes that's drupal)

[DaveNYC]

nice atitude ipb community, bye!

Sorry, you're out of line and overreacting to the reputation feature.

I've been a license holder for 4 years, and though I do more lurking than participating in these forums, the IPB community has been superb. They are always willing to help other members. They offered good feedback in your thread here. I would characterize them as more polite than 'average' forums (generally speaking, of course).

Most importantly, the IPB staff is very, very attentive. They're always replying to user suggestions. As a member here, you really do have an input on the software. They listen, and that's a great quality for any software company (because good customer relations is all too often treated like a luxury at many companies).

On topic: I agree that social groups have a place on forums. True, they will not have a place on every forum, but I'm confident admins will come up with clever uses. In some ways, even in small forums, I think members like being able to run their own little club/group. Gives them a sense of ownership of a little corner of the forum. Some people may not see a lot of practical functionality in that, but I see a psychological importance to the community overall.

[Energizer]

I support social groups! But! There are more important than that!

[.Ian]

If folks have ideas as to how social groups should or should not be implemented then http://community.invisionpower.com/topic/306451-pin-social-groups/ is worth a look :)

[Energizer]

If folks have ideas as to how social groups should or should not be implemented then [url="http://community.invisionpower.com/topic/306451-pin-social-groups/"]http://community.inv...-social-groups/[/url] is worth a look :)

They not worry! Have you ever had the experience that Matt has implemented something bad? :)

[Owdy]

And a second thing that i would like to say is that i think it is a very bad idea to show "you can not post" or "you can not start a new thread" buttons( when the user is not logedin), who come up whith this idea?

I agree. If person has no permission to post or something, just dont show buttons to post.

And i support social groups. Test SMF 2.0, they have good social groups feature. User can reguest group membership, they have group moderators etc.

[Peter F.]

They not worry! Have you ever had the experience that Matt has implemented something bad? :)

He was referring to the Social Groups app that I'm in the middle of developing (the link is a link to the development topic) and was suggesting that, if there are any specific ways in which people think Social Groups should (or should not) be implemented, the development topic would be a good place to talk about that sort of thing.

[Ditchmonkey]

Just because Vbulletin has social groups isn't a good reason that all forum software packages should have the same thing. I certainly don't consider social groups a core feature in the forums. Regarding the post buttons - it's not just guests that see those buttons. I have forums where the permissions prohibit members from starting new threads. I'd rather have that notification on the button clarifying permissions rather than getting a hundred messages about the button being missing in that forum.

[bfarber]

Regarding the post buttons - it's not just guests that see those buttons. I have forums where the permissions prohibit members from starting new threads. I'd rather have that notification on the button clarifying permissions rather than getting a hundred messages about the button being missing in that forum.

Truth be told, we've experimented with more than one setup. Hiding the buttons, showing the button but then showing an error when it's clicked (with the login form). Based on real world research, we've determined the best option is to show a message to the user where the button normally appears, explaining that they can't use the button.

For those that disagree, that's fine. This is why IPB is fully skinnable. You can remove the buttons in the skin if you don't want them to display.

[glorify]

I have social groups on my vb forum and even have a mod that allows your subscribed groups on the forum home. They still get little use except for one and that's more of a good ol' boys club that really could be made into just a private forum.

[Tanax]

Just because Vbulletin has social groups isn't a good reason that all forum software packages should have the same thing. I certainly don't consider social groups a core feature in the forums. Regarding the post buttons - it's not just guests that see those buttons. I have forums where the permissions prohibit members from starting new threads. I'd rather have that notification on the button clarifying permissions rather than getting a hundred messages about the button being missing in that forum.

And in all fairness, let's reverse that. Just because vBulletin has Social Groups and we're on IPB doesn't mean that IPB shouldn't implement it aswell. And just because vBulletin implemented it in a bad way doesn't mean that IPB can't implement it in a better way.

I think people are too serious about the whole "IPB vs vB" thing. Just because one has something doesn't mean that the other can't implement it aswell.

[Razasharp]

I have social groups on my vb forum and even have a mod that allows your subscribed groups on the forum home. They still get little use except for one and that's more of a good ol' boys club that really could be made into just a private forum.

That sounds like a neat mod!