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IE6 and IPB3


Guest RobertMidd

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IPB 3.0.0 final will be fully functional in IE6. We have always said it would be.

We have simply said this default skin, because it uses advanced CSS and such, will not look 100% perfect in IE6. Alternate skins can of course look perfect in IE6.

We are talking about cosmetic issues here not functionality. Please do not think otherwise :)

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To give perspective this is some text directly from our corporate IT people on OS upgrades:

Why not just skip Vista and go straight to Windows 7?


The goal is not Vista or even a newer operating system; it is a more managed computing environment. Our pursuit is better security. We need to radically shift the way we operate our computing environment in order to respond to the radical shift we face with the security threats to our environment. Windows XP will not be supported much longer and Windows 7 will not be practical to deploy until 2010 at the very earliest. The exposure in terms of security is just too great for *** to wait to implement a more secure, managed environment on our local computers.





There was an Information Systems release on *** stating that Internet Explorer 7 was planned to be finished being implemented by Spring 2007. Can we get an update on why this hasn't happened yet?



A. IE7.0 has been undergoing applications testing since introduced. There are still 17 application issues that are pending the adoption of IE7.0 as the *** Standard browser. Out of the 17 issues, 3 are 'Showstoppers', 13 have moderate impact to apps and 1 is simply a 'nice to have'. Eight issues have an estimated resolution date by Q3-2007, four in Q4-2007 and four in Q1-2008. Estimated deployment and adoption of Standard is forecasted for Spring 2008. *** will develop a rollout strategy targeted for Q2-2008, once the Standard is ratified.



I should note it is 2009 and they (per above) are still not allowing ie7.
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What's the cost to a company that's sitting at IE6 and not moving forward? I'd bet your stuff doesn't work in FF, Opera, Safari, apparent that it doesn't work in IE7 or IE8. Being stuck on IE6 means you can't use anything past XP.



So heres a sum of your costs of staying,


Outdated, unsupported, and extremely unsecure browser


A web system designed on older, unsecured protocol (didn't IE6 only support 64 (pre sp2) encryption?)



The vulnerability alone should be costing your IT department a lot in making work arounds for systems not compatable with IE6, and the things that can get through IE6's weak security.



---------


On the opinion of the topic, I support IPS supporting IE7/FF and up for full compatability.


IE6 "workable" (but not pretty) is fine.



I mean, i'm sure if user avatars are floating dead center of a post they would fix that issue. They are talking it's not going to be perfection.


That's a nice theory you have there, but its unreasonable in practice. For the first thing the hospital doesn't HAVE any money TO invest in such a project. For another the hospital IT apps have to remain compatible with GP surgeries (who use appallingly outdated software, one uses NT 4) for another some of the computers still in use are Pentium 3s, so upgrading beyond XP is out now anyway, and the hospital can't afford any new computers right now, what little money the hospital does have is tied up in not being fined hundreds of thousands of pounds by the British Government (all part of the internal politics of the NHS) and for another some of the web apps we use are universal to the entire NHS and therefore the hospital couldn't update even if they tried. It will take years for those to be updated, as trying to get the NHS to do anything is like steering the titanic as it approaches the iceberg at full pelt. Even if all those issues weren't there, YOU try arguing the case for IE 7 compatible web apps over more staff or better equipment to a Chief Executive whose grasp of IT is somewhere between neanderthal and my grandmother.

I'm not calling for anything beyond IE6 being workable myself, I'm just saying that a lot of people use IE6 because they have no other choice and will continue to be pushed into that position for a while. I particularly feel that a lot of businesses that use IPB on their intranets will be put off upgrading, which would ultimately be bad for IPS's business. Yes, its obsolete, and outdated, and stupid. In my personal life I haven't used IE 6 since before Firefox was a glint in Mozilla's eye (I remember using Mozilla 0.9 'Barneys Girlfriend'es) but that is the way of the world, no matter how much we'd all like it to be different.
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IPB 3.0.0 final will be fully functional in IE6. We have always said it would be.



We have simply said this default skin, because it uses advanced CSS and such, will not look 100% perfect in IE6. Alternate skins can of course look perfect in IE6.



We are talking about cosmetic issues here not functionality. Please do not think otherwise :)




To be honest my end users will not see the difference. Cosmetic issues are certainly an issue that may make people go simply to a competing website. In their minds, a site that loads up and "looks wierd / bad" is easily a sign that other items (right or wrong) may not work well. If every time they use a different browser (again a lot use IE6 especially at work) they get a different experience they may again choose to associate that with poor quality. Even Apple Computer who is the "king" of UI makes sure their site looks the same no matter what browser you are using.
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To be honest my end users will not see the difference. Cosmetic issues are certainly an issue that may make people go simply to a competing website. In their minds, a site that loads up and "looks wierd / bad" is easily a sign that other items (right or wrong) may not work well. If every time they use a different browser (again a lot use IE6 especially at work) they get a different experience they may again choose to associate that with poor quality. Even Apple Computer who is the "king" of UI makes sure their site looks the same no matter what browser you are using.




That's why I was pointing out that, if IE6 being perfect is a concern for you, then you could certainly apply an IE6-friendly skin.
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That's why I was pointing out that, if IE6 being perfect is a concern for you, then you could certainly apply an IE6-friendly skin.




I agree we could. No argument. Let me give you a few downsides to this though:

--o We as users have to support two skins for our site. One supported and one NOT.

--o Keeping the "brand image" the same will be very difficult or impossible and will present users with two different "looks and feel" for the site.

--o We have to go to a third party potentially to get this IE6 compatible (which we assume it will then support IPB3.x which may not be fully true) theme at a cost.
------> this third party scheme may not be supported well or in the future leading to major problems.

--o Upgrades in the future may break the third party scheme (versus if it was an IPB supported theme it would be supported on an upgrade path)


Even if I used a third party IE6 compatible theme to "everyone", this it would run this risk of being broken at EVERY upgrade of ipb and if that third part company was no longer around or did not support things quickly it would create a major problem.

I would suggest to IPB that you have THREE skins. One the "new skin you already have". One a legacy skin for people that need IE6 which would be very similar to the "new skin" and work with all features (backend). Finally the Lo-Fi Skin. This would allow people to pick the new skin or IE6 compliant skin as the "master for everyone" and the Lo-fi for search indexes and other uses. Maybe by the time IPB 4.x comes out you can drop the IE6 legacy skin, but I bet IE6 will still have over 10% market share for the next year or two.
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IPB 3.0.0 final will be fully functional in IE6. We have always said it would be.



We have simply said this default skin, because it uses advanced CSS and such, will not look 100% perfect in IE6. Alternate skins can of course look perfect in IE6.



We are talking about cosmetic issues here not functionality. Please do not think otherwise :)


thanks for clearing that up. :)
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And.. A fact in point.. This here post.. Made in IE6.. I'm the designated loser around here that still has IE6 on my home PC.. All the tickets that come in with the "It don't work on IE6".. I get the message saying "Can you check this?" because I'm the only one left with a copy of it.

It ain't purty.. But it does work.. Some screenshots from IE6..

Everything on this post.. From the login, to browsing to the post, to replying, to adding the attachments.. All done on IE6, all done on the standard skin.. The post screen is the worst part.. As you can see. Outside of that.. Really not that bad.

Edit.. Ok.. You can't see thumbnails in IE6..

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IMO all three look pretty bad.

Image #1 is just crazy. WTF type reaction.
Image #2 the "Discussion" tab decided to float away to the top :P. The "watched content" on the right is misaligned badly. If I recall right on IE the stats box and active users area is badly messed up.
Image #3 is really confusing with all the fotmatting icons gone or who knows where.

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Outstanding issues with IE6 will be fixed before the final release. We are not saying that as you see it today is how it will be in final. We are simply saying that it won't look identical as IE7/IE8/Firefox/etc. simply because IE6 is so old it does not support new technology.

There will be skins that fully support IE6 I am sure. We just have decided not to go for "perfect" IE6 support in the default IPB3 skin since IE6 usage is dropping so fast we do not consider it a good use of resources to spend so much time making the skin "perfect" in IE6 when its usage drops daily.

But, in summary, all those hugely glaring issues pointed out here in IE6 will be addressed to the best of our ability while still balancing time and resources for a minority and outdated browser.

Just give us some time to get to it as, no offense, IE6 is not at the top of our pile of to do items.

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IMO all three look pretty bad.



Image #1 is just crazy. WTF type reaction.


Image #2 the "Discussion" tab decided to float away to the top :P . The "watched content" on the right is misaligned badly. If I recall right on IE the stats box and active users area is badly messed up.


Image #3 is really confusing with all the fotmatting icons gone or who knows where.




Thus, the difference between 'will work' and 'will look good'

Lipstick will work on a donkey..
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Thus, the difference between 'will work' and 'will look good'



Lipstick will work on a donkey..




It sounds like Charles has implied that quite of few of these major things will be fixed. Excellent! I am ok with tiny misalignments but in those examples I showed it was nearly impossible to view the members list or even reply to a topic.

On a side note, the 2.x default skin renders GREAT in the Blackberry Bold's browser however spectaculary fails in the 3.x skin. I am not crazy to think that this is even remotely on the list of things to fix -- however I do admin my forums remotely a lot via my BB. My Q is "Will the lo-fi skin have full moderator and admin ability?". If so then myself and many others will find it great to admin remotely via their phone for those cases where @##$@ hits the fan and you are not at your PC.
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On a side note, the 2.x default skin renders GREAT in the Blackberry Bold's browser however spectaculary fails in the 3.x skin. I am not crazy to think that this is even remotely on the list of things to fix -- however I do admin my forums remotely a lot via my BB. My Q is "Will the lo-fi skin have full moderator and admin ability?". If so then myself and many others will find it great to admin remotely via their phone for those cases where @##$@ hits the fan and you are not at your PC.




That is the plan. The lofi skin should allow full realistic functionality, while not using tons of CSS and javascript and images - perfect for mobile devices.
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