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IE6 and IPB3


Guest RobertMidd

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Refusing to support a browser that 20% of people use is foolish in my view, if you're running a business (and let's not forget that many IP.Board users, including prominent ones, are business users) then not having a forum compatible with IE 6 is like not allowing every fifth customer from participating in discussions and suggestions with you, if those businesses are amongst those that only allow IE 6 on their work computers this may be even more problematic (as I recall some companies use IP.Board on their intranets).



The lofi compromise seems like a good one, and I would personally like to see the useragent automatically adjust for mobile phones and similar devices as well (I have tried to browse these forums on my phone and been frustrated at having to wait for the full page to load and then having to hit the lo-fi link), but refusing to support 20% of the market makes no sense from a business point of view.


Perhaps. But on the flip side, businesses and enterprises need to move forward. IE6 is antiquated. While a good portion of the market uses IE6, people, businesses, and enterprises need to realize that old technology will not be sufficient to accomplish some of modern day tasks that some applications require.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2



IE6 having more marketshare than firefox is pretty sad...but it tells you how widely used it still is.



You fail to note that you are comparing Firefox 3.0 to IE6. In reality, More people use Firefox 2.0 and 3.0 than IE6, and I consider Firefox 2.0 modern enough. At least Mozilla is forcing people to move on and move forward technology wise.
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I just checked. I work at a big company (80k people engineering company) and we all use IE6 (for many reasons they wont let us upgrade). I know that Lockheed and several other places use it too. Needless to say this is a MAJOR issue for me. I am not going to have a reduced skin or a "crappy skin" for so many of my users.

Not to be blunt but this is a major WTF for me. Web2.0 sites like Digg.com work fine on IE6 because they want to "include" as many users as possible. People are not going to upgrade their browser because my forums do not load correctly... they are simply going to go to a competing site that does work right.

This reminds me of the days where people put "Best viewed with IE 5.x, ..". I am NOT going back to those days.

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You fail to note that you are comparing Firefox 3.0 to IE6. In reality, More people use Firefox 2.0 and 3.0 than IE6, and I consider Firefox 2.0 modern enough.



19.21% for IE6 vs. 21.14% for FF combined. They are almost the same when added up.

A lot of people are still using IE6 for whatever reason.
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Perhaps. But on the flip side, businesses and enterprises need to move forward. IE6 is antiquated. While a good portion of the market uses IE6, people, businesses, and enterprises need to realize that old technology will not be sufficient to accomplish some of modern day tasks that some applications require.





You fail to note that you are comparing Firefox 3.0 to IE6. In reality, More people use Firefox 2.0 and 3.0 than IE6, and I consider Firefox 2.0 modern enough. At least Mozilla is forcing people to move on and move forward technology wise.




Business are not going to upgrade (or be forced to) over this. Many of them have intranets designed to work on IE6 (IE 7 wont). Yes this is crappy but until they get their intranet and other supported items up to speed they will not follow suit. I will be frank, I do not know ANY websites that choose to exclude IE6 users or even any that degrade their user experience significantly for IE6. Does this slow web development -- yes. But this is the world we live in.
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You do realize that this is just the default skin, right. I am fairly certain that skinners will write fully IE6 ready skins so as to act as a security blanket.




I do not want to have to support two completely separate skins. I am sure this goes for many people. I also do not want to have to rely on an unsupported skin that could go belly up at any point without official support.
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Of course that's easily solved with an IE6 skin.


Better yet, get with the times and upgrade software that is provided for FREE. I could understand if they had to purchase a license for each workstation/purchase a new site license, but they don't--IE7 is free and easily available. I can't stand organisations that don't upgrade as and when new releases have been released and have had time to stabilise, thus upgrading to it is fine. My College haven't updated to the latest release of Firefox and it infuriates me. :angry:
If your website looks fine in IE6 the chances are it is functional, if not the same, in IE7.

Also, for the people complaining about IE6 being at work and all that ...should you really be on here at work? :r </rhetorical>
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Better yet, get with the times and upgrade software that is provided for [b]FREE[/b]. I could understand if they had to purchase a license for each workstation/purchase a new site license, but they don't--IE7 is free and easily available. I can't stand organisations that don't upgrade as and when new releases have been released and have had time to stabilise, thus upgrading to it is fine. My College haven't updated to the latest release of Firefox and it infuriates me. :angry:


If your website looks fine in IE6 the chances are it is functional, if not the same, in IE7.



Also, for the people complaining about IE6 being at work and all that ...should you really be on here at work? :r </rhetorical>




I can tell you for a fact that a lot of our intra net (crappy as it is) does not work right on firefox/ie7. There are so many activex and other modules that fail it is just a joke. I have tried to use firefox will massive failure. Again this is at a major 80k person company and my bets are that this is not just unique to us. I know from the outside at home perspective people may not understand this, but to an IT department there is very little downside when IE6 is still supported by MS for security and the intranet works well with it. As you said, they are not as concerned with our use of secondary off-site websites.
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I work for the NHS, and many of the web applications that we use are simply not compatible in IE 7 or anything other than IE 6 (yes they were coded crappy, but what you gonna do?), so we have to use IE 6 until ALL those applications are upgraded (which is unlikely to happen as the hospital is broke, we can no longer afford chairs, phones or photocopier toner, on a list of priorities for the NHS 'internet apps' are not near the top of the list for obvious reasons.)

Based on the speed that technology in the NHS appears to move I suspect they'll still be on IE 6 in several years time. Assuming that just because IE7 is free that makes it fully available for a corporation is ultimately ignorant. IE 7 may be free, but to make places like my hospital IE7 compatible is going to be surprisingly costly and it is simply not worth the expense right now.

The NHS is the third biggest employer in the world - 1.3 million employees, this applies to a lot of people.

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You're absolutely right, Fast Lane, and a lot of companies are the same - My old employers are one of the top 5 insurance companies in the world, 45k+ employees, all IE6 and no plans to upgrade any time soon.

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I wanted to also say that I know hearing this from the community may be "annoying" to IPB staff, given that your main skin is being critiqued over IE6 usability (and you really want to release IPB 3.x soon) however like all of us, we simply want IPB to be the best it can be. I hope you can see this from the perspective of us wanting our respective sites to create "one" seamless user experience that does not depend on what browser you use (meaning any browser with significant market share, which includes IE6). I really do not want people to go to work or another old computer and have a different experience. This creates brand confusion and also increases the internal cost of maintenance in the long term. I am sure making the skin work with IE6 would not drop "too" many of the new fancy effects but it would surely improve the market reach and adoption by IPB users such as myself (and many others) who would strongly resist upgrading (or would be forced to pay a lot of many for a custom skin that runs the risk of being unsupported or incurs long term maintenance costs).

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IE6 should be using Lo-Fi, and that's it. It's an ancient, obsolete browser that no longer should be bothered with when it comes to developers. If you're stuck with it at work, that's a shame, but as you said, there's nothing you can do. Just hope your corporation will adopt to at least IE7, if not 8.

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Some of us surf the web in our lunch breaks, in fact my experience is that the vast majority of people do. My mum's only internet time is in her lunch break, and IPS is hardly the only company that uses IPB itself either, that is why we are talking about work computers.

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IE6 should be using Lo-Fi, and that's it. It's an ancient, obsolete browser that no longer should be bothered with when it comes to developers. If you're stuck with it at work, that's a shame, but as you said, there's nothing you can do. Just hope your corporation will adopt to at least IE7, if not 8.




see my quote below from my previous post.

I really do not want people to go to work or another old computer and have a different experience. This creates brand confusion and also increases the internal cost of maintenance in the long term. I am sure making the skin work with IE6 would not drop "too" many of the new fancy effects but it would surely improve the market reach and adoption by IPB users such as myself (and many others) who would strongly resist upgrading (or would be forced to pay a lot of many for a custom skin that runs the risk of being unsupported or incurs long term maintenance costs).



If I am making money off of a website, why would I want to alienate a large % of my customers (possibly encouraging them to go to a competitor) when I can easily do something to keep them (make a skin work on IE6 or provide coding to provide a consistent cross browser visual experience)?
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Why has this turned into a discussion about work computers? The only work computers that need to play with this board perfectly are the IPS team, since their work is this place.



I think it's clear that I believe IPS are making the right move. Just my two-penneth.



Well we've just listed three employers (who, to be fair, don't all pay people to work on the computer...) with a total of 1.4 million employees with access to just IE6 during work. I'd say that's why we're discussing work computers.

...and no, for IPS to sell their software, this site needs to work well as a demo across as many browser platforms as possible. :)
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IE6 should be using Lo-Fi, and that's it. It's an ancient, obsolete browser that no longer should be bothered with when it comes to developers. If you're stuck with it at work, that's a shame, but as you said, there's nothing you can do. Just hope your corporation will adopt to at least IE7, if not 8.




Exactly my thoughts....


If I am making money off of a website, why would I want to alienate a large % of my customers (possibly encouraging them to go to a competitor) when I can easily do something to keep them (make a skin work on IE6).



Why would you lose % of customers because they cannot use Javascript effects? If they want them, use a proper browser, hell, even use IE7 if you have to.



You just cannot keep mainstream support for IE6, 8/9 years after it was first released, and if these corporations cannot even keep their Intranets up to date with the latest standards, I think they have bigger things to worry about. :)
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Yes and as a business model if I know a lot of traffic comes to my site from people at work (lunch breaks or otherwise) I would certainly want to cater to that and make sure their user experience is as good as possible. Their traffic equates to REAL money from advertising or purchases.

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Exactly my thoughts....




Why would you lose % of customers because they cannot use Javascript effects? If they want them, use a proper browser, hell, even use IE7 if you have to.





You just cannot keep mainstream support for IE6, 8/9 years after it was first released, and if these corporations cannot even keep their Intranets up to date with the latest standards, I think they have bigger things to worry about. :)




To be frank, employees at most of these companies have IT policies that prevent them from using anything other than IE6. If I have a large % of people making me money... why would I not cater to them?

Are my "principles" of forcing people to upgrade worth the money I would lose? My simple answer is no. I hope IPB can see it that way too.
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You just cannot keep mainstream support for IE6, 8/9 years after it was first released, and if these corporations cannot even keep their Intranets up to date with the latest standards, I think they have bigger things to worry about. :)




You've never seen a corporate intranet, have you?

The company I worked for has an intranet that's been around since about 1995. The latest applications, the ones I built the framework for, they work in Chrome, Safari, Firefox all that good stuff. The oldest ones? They were designed for Netscape 3, Netscape 4, IE 5, you name it. There are HUNDREDS of applications of all different sizes on that intranet, good luck trying to find sponsorship for an upgrade project that'll take months, and bring nothing other than support for web standards (the CEO of an insurance company isn't going to give a monkeys what that means).

It should probably also be noted that they still run some of the same mainframe systems they've had since the 1980s, this legacy issue is only going to get worse for web developers targetting corporates, i'm afraid. ;)
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You just cannot keep mainstream support for IE6, 8/9 years after it was first released, and if these corporations cannot even keep their Intranets up to date with the latest standards, I think they have bigger things to worry about. :)


Well in our hospital at least it is completely unaffordable, unviable, and unrealistic to move to IE7. Sure I'd be able to use IPB but I wouldn't be able to send an EDS, screwing up communications with GPs, I wouldn't be able to use NSTS and trace patients, I wouldn't be able to trace GPs...

Yes, its crappy, yes its outdated, yes its obsolete, but you know what, when the hospital does its budget in April if the choice is down to a shiny new MRI machine or some extra nurses or getting the cash together to upgrade the web applications to IE 7 compatibility the choice will be for the former, and rightly so.
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IE 7 may be free, but to make places like my hospital IE7 compatible is going to be surprisingly costly and it is simply not worth the expense right now.


Bad bad theory. I'm not pointing only at you Chris. In my Info & Comp. Tech. program they are teaching the reverse, use the latest stable system within a set period. Cost? Your looking at investment.

What's the cost to a company that's sitting at IE6 and not moving forward? I'd bet your stuff doesn't work in FF, Opera, Safari, apparent that it doesn't work in IE7 or IE8. Being stuck on IE6 means you can't use anything past XP.

So heres a sum of your costs of staying,
Outdated, unsupported, and extremely unsecure browser
A web system designed on older, unsecured protocol (didn't IE6 only support 64 (pre sp2) encryption?)

The vulnerability alone should be costing your IT department a lot in making work arounds for systems not compatable with IE6, and the things that can get through IE6's weak security.

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On the opinion of the topic, I support IPS supporting IE7/FF and up for full compatability.
IE6 "workable" (but not pretty) is fine.

I mean, i'm sure if user avatars are floating dead center of a post they would fix that issue. They are talking it's not going to be perfection.
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What's the cost to a company that's sitting at IE6 and not moving forward? I'd bet your stuff doesn't work in FF, Opera, Safari, apparent that it doesn't work in IE7 or IE8. Being stuck on IE6 means you can't use anything past XP.



So heres a sum of your costs of staying,


Outdated, unsupported, and extremely unsecure browser


A web system designed on older, unsecured protocol (didn't IE6 only support 64 (pre sp2) encryption?)



The vulnerability alone should be costing your IT department a lot in making work arounds for systems not compatable with IE6, and the things that can get through IE6's weak security.



---------


On the opinion of the topic, I support IPS supporting IE7/FF and up for full compatability.


IE6 "workable" (but not pretty) is fine.



I mean, i'm sure if user avatars are floating dead center of a post they would fix that issue. They are talking it's not going to be perfection.




Academics unfortunately mean very little when it comes the the dollar cost. If a company can push off costs with a minimal impact to doing business (thus freeing the cash to invest in our work products) they will. Legacy support is a HUGE business. Only recently did MS drop support for windows 3.x for businesses if you can believe it.

We can argue all day whether companies SHOULD have this mentality but the fact is that they DO and to ignore this is a bad business decision by IPB IMO.
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