One reason why I may consider switching to competing software…

[CharlesC]

I would love it if this were really feasible, if I could have a job where I could just create custom mods all day and still make enough money to pay my bills I would do it in a heartbeat. The problem is, as others have stated, most customers are unwilling to pay that much. There are a few customers out there that will pay appropriately for our work, but they are few and far between. Until that changes, I have to spend my days at my current job and code a mod here and there for extra cash in my few spare hours.

It's not just custom modding situations that are ridiculous these days, custom skins included, people expect to be paying average prices like they would a skin say at(I'm just throwing out names) Transverse Styles for $20-$30, I've had many people who expected this inexpensive price of me, and it's ridiculous after wasting days, heck even a week on a skin listening to their demands and constant changes along the way.
The people that really make me angry are people that I barely know or don't that get their hands on my windows live address and think when they talk to me for a while that I'd loosen the price up if I did a design for them. I'd rather not go on too much of a rant so I'll reserve the rest of my mind to myself.

[Digi]

Transverse Styles for $20-$30

Then again, just like modifications/components, there is a major difference between skins for resale and custom developed ones. This seems to be one of the biggest issues with customers unwilling to pay. They see that a pre-made skin is available for $10-60 and expect that a completely custom one should be the same.

I've had many people who expected this inexpensive price of me, and it's ridiculous after wasting days, heck even a week on a skin listening to their demands and constant changes along the way.

If you are having serious troubles with changes to your project outlines, you need a better contract with solid rules against such changes. It may mean more time consulting, but less hassle for you in long run :thumbsup:

Whereas I've never had luck with people that want stuff, and frankly it's easier to get $20 out of 15 guys off of something I wrote with my needs instead of $300 for some guy to not be able to make up his mind.

At least thats where I'm coming from.

Really it also depends on how much other components of equal features cost.

And simple doesn't always mean it's badly coded or worthless. Simple can sometimes be the best solution for many of a board's needs... though my main project I want to do isn't small or simple.

I agree with you entirely Will. Simple doesn't mean bad, nor does cheap. The case I'm mostly trying to make is that folks do not understand how to value the requests they have. Because they see a mod, take your currently mythical one, for $15 they believe they can get a completely custom one for the same sort of price scale and support. That is just not the case. Pre-made is a tough game to play...and if done right, or you get lucky, it can be profitable. I just personally feel that it isn't worth the hassle overall. :)

[CharlesC]

If you are having serious troubles with changes to your project outlines, you need a better contract with solid rules against such changes. It may mean more time consulting, but less hassle for you in long run :thumbsup:

Infinity Styles, the website I am junior manager for and considered a "base of operations" for me, is going under major changes, and the guidelines to custom skinning are definitely changing along with it.

[tomek__w]

Just had a silly thought - let's do the maths!

The last time a 'played' with skinning was about three years ago so humour me if I am totally wrong

[Digi]

Some one should add a poll for the cost/h ratio you mentioned just to find out :P It would be nice to see some realistic numbers associated with it. One poll for what one would be willing to pay and another for what they'd expect to be paid.

This topic has kind of turned to a gen-chat type topic though. Perhaps it would be best there and another similar one with IPS type ideas made here? :)

[tomek__w]

I don't think it would be very accurate as a great many members here are probably still in education, run their boards as a hobby and have very little money to spend

[Digi]

Then at the very least the poll will serve to show the hypocrisy related to one vs. the other? I'll vote $0 for you and $50/h for me....

[CharlesC]

I stepped down from being one of the owners at Infinity Styles(the site I mentioned before) so that the other person could take over, some people are not always fit to run a forum at any age, but none the less, I'd rather have someone else dealing with the pricing than me, especially someone older. :lol:

[tomek__w]

Then at the very least the poll will serve to show the hypocrisy related to one vs. the other? I'll vote $0 for you and $50/h for me....

Arrrggghhh!

OK, you got me interested so I'm going to set up a poll now!

[tomek__w]

OK, there is now a poll in Community General Chat

This might be interesting?

[Digi]

I guess maybe this means this can return to being a feedback topic? :P

Maybe a kind moderator would be willing to split relevant posts or merge the topic with the poll?

[bfarber]

Well, because of the content the original poster started with, I think most of these posts do directly relate to their inquiry and feedback.

For now, I'll just leave this conversation as is (and leave it open) but I would continue discussion of the pricings in the poll topic itself so as not to stray too far off track.

I've replied to the poll as well.

[getstuff4less]

Well the main issue seems to be cost. I have contacted three major people who offer modifications on their website and they said that they were too busy-even though I was willing to pay the price quoted. I am not going to mention names simply because. Now when I said reasonable I gave my example of $350. That was not for a custom skin that was simply to upgrade the point release. Now people will think I am rich and will offer these developments for me and charge double, but I am not dumb. Anyways, I contacted metalaxe and my e-mail the main one was blocked and I never received a reply to follow-up with a quote as was promised through my second. I will say that I contacted the second poster and I'm working with him to get a quote. Hopefully, he can now comment on me as a potential customer so far. Can any PHP developer quickly learn to modify the board? I ask this because if I were to post under one of those freelancing I'm scared that I would get someone would never modified Invision before and since I need major modifications that would be an issue.

[bfarber]

Yes, the main issue for developers by and large is cost - too many people want work done for too cheap, so many developers just stop doing it. When it's fun (and/or profitable) it's worth the time. When it stops being fun, and stops being profitable, it turns into more of a chore, and people that don't HAVE to do it give up.

[Amy T]

I have made a few custom skins for free and it is a lot of work. I am not sure if I would ever start charging for it or not.
The last skin I made the person who I made it for was so happy I was doing it for free that he forgot to tell me he did not like it even though I made it exactly the way he wanted. He actually dropped mine and went with a paid one that he paid about 60 for.
That only happened once a lot of my other skins are still being used.

[.Ryan]

I think most of the 'problems' have been pointed out. There are numerous reasons developers can't or won't work for-hire with IP.Board, and most of them have been listed already.

A large portion of the community is unable or unwilling to spend the type of money it takes to purchase a good quality custom modification.

Like me... :lol: because I simply don't have enough income to spend on stuff like that.

Then you get attitude for quotes over $20 (largely because kids in high school with nothing better to do are often willing to take those $20 quotes, do a poor job on the work (hey, they're only getting $20 after all) and people come to expect this sort of price range).

Thats not entirely true although if you had me code something I could not even get past opening the <?php> tags if thats even a correct php tag. I know 0 PHP but sorta can "interpret" how it works ect.

@AmyT the problem with people that want things for free is that you do the work and they always change their minds. And in the end your stuck with the product, happened to me once, so I just released it to the pubic and said oh well your loss.

Developing is the same thing I work with a friend of mine that designs flash templates, from the original scope of work, we changed so many things and tweaked other things it was funny what the original template looked like and the finished product. So basically you are never going to have someone that says I want X and you deliver X and they are happy with X they always want to add Y and Z to the project... its human nature.

Now what I aways do is add a contact that they "digitally" sign by typing their e-mail and I say if you add $15.00 we will tweak or adjust colors, text, formatting, location of stuff, ajax, ect and miminial things, but not re write or alter the major project.

[Off Topic]

One of my friends developed these if you are interested in a Freshman Class of '10 coder :P amazing skill this kid has.... he developed all of those web apps, Dark Write is kinda cool, and the Debate Ware is used up and down the East Coast. I gotta help him fix up some of the ACP's they are so "ewww" and raw looking.

http://carbonicmedia.com/
http://darkwrite.us.to/
http://debateware.com/
http://content.us.to/

[Luke]

I haven't read all the comments, but I did read a bulk of them...

Another thing I would like to mention is quoting ability and business sense. I am very good at custom modifications, at least as far as IPB is concerned, but I suck at business. My work is good because I take the necessary time needed, and work everything out efficiently. But when it comes to accurately quoting a job, far too often I ended up under quoting myself and not realizing how long a modification would really take. And that goes hand in hand with how much a customer is actually willing to pay, how much other developers have quoted, and the time spent to figure out exactly what the customer wants. In the end I end up making very little, and when you know this you loose quite a bit of confidence. On top of that if you're not making enough, you end up taking on other jobs and other responsibilities and eventually it all blows up in your face.

When developing things for myself I know exactly what I want and can care less how much time it takes me to complete. When developing something totally new for someone else, it's a whole new ball game.

I eventually got fed up with it and quit doing it all together, although I do still sell one product, which does fairly well. I'm now getting into video production as a hobby (for now) and teaching as a profession. I guess the experiences from programming thus far have burnt me out...

[getstuff4less]

I guess my point was that if I wanted to hire someone such as Luke, who is very good at what he does it has been quite difficult and that was why I posted it up.
So far I have tried e29inc, Invisionmodding, dscrpting custom services and they have all been too busy to take on my job. I have tried your service in the past and it was very good, however I've seem to have chosen a bad time...
Now my options are few and if those do not come through you can see my dilemma. I guess my point was that even if one wanted to pay a fair price it's very hard to find someone to take on the work. If IPS had customs services, one knows that the work would be quoted a fair price, completed in a timely manner, and done professionally. Now, we do not even have that option.

[Digi]

If IPS had customs services, one knows that the work would be quoted a fair price, completed in a timely manner, and done professionally. Now, we do not even have that option.

Actually, even if IPS had such a service anymore, that would be assumption, not necessarily fact. Sure, most people would assume this to be true because, well, they make the software so they should be able to handle the modifications/skins for it. That doesn't make your remarks true, it just makes them your opinion that it is possible that would be the case should they offer such services.

Note: This is not meant as a mark against IPS, just a general remark to the comment above.

[Luke]

It's true IPS would be better suited to handle custom modifications than anyone else... But if you consider that it wasn't worth perusing for them, you can see why things are the way they are. IPS has the financial backing, staffing, and resources to do something like that... With free lance developers, you have to depend on yourself for everything... There is more involved than just doing the job... And eventually it wears people out. Some people handle it better than others. And if you end up making more money working for some company behind a desk, you can see why a lot of people just throw up their hands and move on.

So what it comes down to is... If IPS wouldn't do it, why would anyone else? The best modifications are generally made by people making modifications for themselves, whether they share them or not.

[Digi]

That just goes with the assumption I mentioned above. You assume that the people completing custom requests for IPS are directly employed by IPS or have training in IPS's software simply because the custom development was done in IPS's name. Who's to say they don't hire the same people that you are, though not explicitly, stating aren't as good as IPS to do the jobs for them? ;)

[bfarber]

You have to remember this as well - we're working on IPB, Gallery, Blog, Download Manager, DB Drivers, Converge, Nexus, Dynamic, and of course other things. We have documentation to manage, tickets to address (which never end with as many customers as we have now), bugs to fix, new features to add, ipsbeyond to manage, and so on.

Our developers include myself, Matt, Josh, Jason, Wizzy, and Rikki for the most part (with Stewart chipping in on various things like converters when he is able to).

As you can see, it's relatively hard for us to take on custom projects on top of the work we are already performing. Many of our customers want us to get out some of the products we're already working on (and asap) and many of our customers want updates to the products we're working on - taking on custom requests that can last weeks or months would severely set back many of our work schedules, and thus it wasn't feasible for us to continue doing them at this time.

[getstuff4less]

That just goes with the assumption I mentioned above. You assume that the people completing custom requests for IPS are directly employed by IPS or have training in IPS's software simply because the custom development was done in IPS's name. Who's to say they don't hire the same people that you are, though not explicitly, stating aren't as good as IPS to do the jobs for them? ;)

I fully understand what this comment means and it was one of the reasons that I did not use the custom services off IPS' website directly since I knew that it was not being done in house and the cost would be lower without the middleman. IPS can delete this comment but it is simply meant for IPS to know why the service could have been used less. It could have been offered for less when it, similar to the hosting had middlemen. I understand why it was done as you guys were just starting out, but this ended up resulting in higher prices for the end-user and less control for you as a business.

[Digi]

The costs involved with IPS services and others had little to do with the usage of such a service. As many have posted, in multiple topics now, the community requesting such work are the ones not willing to cough up the prices even from the direct source of creation. It wouldn't matter if it was 50% cheaper or not, people are just not willing to pay it because they can get someone to halfass the work for less. This isn't just with IPS product related custom services, but all throughout the programming and design industry.

[getstuff4less]

I think a point that should be made is that even if an individual was to offer an individual the amount per hour that he or she was requesting they may still have issues in getting the person to take on the job. This has been my or experience in four cases from four companies. So this means that cost is not the only is not the only issue...
I do not know why you say that the cost involved have little to do with the usage. You will want to say that people are out to find the lowest price possible, so according to that logic to cost is a factor. Regardless, as I said even if someone wanted to pay the amount proposed by the provider it comes back to what I've said above

even if an individual was to offer an individual the amount per hour that he or she was requesting they may still have issues in getting the person to take on the job. This has been my or experience in four cases from four companies. So this means that cost is not the only is not the only issue...