chickenbak Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 First of all, let me preface this with saying that I am not trying to stir up trouble, I am trying to promote a healthy discussion of the path of Invision. I have used Invision for quite some time now, and myself used to be a contributing member of a "rival" open source forum (when Invision was available OS free). I always thought that Invision had the right idea when it came to forum development, and consider it the best forum package out there for many reasons...not necessarily the most feature-rich...but features aren't everything. Regardless however, I have been personally disturbed by what seems to be a huge dilution of Invision resources to develop and support a wide range of products. Great, congratulations to Invision for making it thus far...but is it too much? Invision has been able to serve a niche community with its products, mainly the community that has to "save up" for a $150 forum software purchase...that seems to me to be its core base (which would be congruent with studies of forum usage etc). With that in mind, attempts are still being made to put out products such as a CMS, billing system, support system, server administration system!?!?!?!?!?!? that are supposed to compete with $1000+ products that are in their 6th or 7th generation. I don't mean to know as much as the developers of Invision, or the marketing section of Invision...but what is trying to be accomplished? Invision has always been at the front of the pack in terms of the products it develops...which makes me wonder why Invision would break the mold that has made it succesful, and put out a product that would be vastly inferior to the packages currently on the market. I gather this presumption based on two reasons... Regardless, I don't purport to know what is going on at Invision, or what is planned...but I speak as a bereived fan, and a concerned customer...take it as you will. Thanks! [*]You would want to keep the pricing in the area that you have been succesful, but this would certainly mean that you couldn't compete with the "big boys" [*]You are 6 or 7 generations behind almost ALL of the products...regardless of whether you can use them as a mold for your product,.Maybe it is my imagination, but it seems that I have seen development slow on the projects that really matter...so is Invision turning its back on its core "market constituency"...looking to grab that bigger piece of cheese? You can ramble off hundreds of large companies that have done the same...and you can see what happened to them...McDonalds is a great example..."let's change McDonald's image to be more 'adult'"...sales tumbled, a great deal of upper management quit, and it was considered one of the biggest failures in marketing history.
Guest Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 I have been personally disturbed by what seems to be a huge dilution of Invision resources to develop and support a wide range of products. I'm failing to see any new products that the staff are currently having to support? There are now more developers for each product than there ever has been previously, same with support staff. The new products being released may mean that IPS need more support staff to cover these new areas, but as IPS are always expanding their team - I don't think that will be a problem. :)which makes me wonder why Invision would break the mold that has made it succesful, and put out a product that would be vastly inferior to the packages currently on the market. I'd be interested to know which product it is you are referring to here? More specifically, whether you have actually used the product you are saying is inferior?
Coastie Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 I somewhat agree and see the quality of the releases slipping a bit. Maybe too much time and resources focused or split among too many projects. I also see the need to expand to keep the company going, with the minimal cost of forums, staying afloat on just that would currently be hard. iB does not seem to have the userbase numbers of vB yet.
princetontiger Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 I really hope that IPS doesn't lose its focus on Invision Power Board. It's the core product and will probably always be its core product.
chickenbak Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 I'm failing to see any new products that the staff are currently having to support? There are now more developers for each product than there ever has been previously, same with support staff. The new products being released may mean that IPS need more support staff to cover these new areas, but as IPS are always expanding their team - I don't think that will be a problem. :) I'd be interested to know which product it is you are referring to here? More specifically, whether you have actually used the product you are saying is inferior? If you read my post, I stated very blatently what I was basing that assertion on...and I also admit readily, as I did previously, that I could be wrong. However, it is my own personal opinion (<==== key here), that the packages and services that Invision is attempting to dive into are so far outside of its current scope that it doesn't make sense. Maybe an alternate brand and entity is in store? It is the same reason why GM automobile companies are always multi-branded...they cater to two different clientele...recognition of that in the business world is vital. How do you jump from a forum, gallery, blog <=== the latter two being without a doubt sub-par to dedicated packages out there, to a billing or server maintenance system without losing something along the way...it isn't a natural progression, not to mention the efforts would be mutually exclusive, or at least should be. I see Power Dynamic being a quality portal...a true CMS...from what I have seen...hardly...and to tout [sic?] it as such is disingenuous in my opinion. Just my personal opinion...and you know what they say about opinions.
Logan Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 I really hope that IPS doesn't lose its focus on Invision Power Board. It's the core product and will probably always be its core product. I feel the same, but I doubt focus will ever be lost on IPB... well at least I hope.
chickenbak Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 I somewhat agree and see the quality of the releases slipping a bit. Maybe too much time and resources focused or split among too many projects. I also see the need to expand to keep the company going, with the minimal cost of forums, staying afloat on just that would currently be hard. iB does not seem to have the userbase numbers of vB yet. Exactly... One might pose an inquiry or study as to why that is the case... Why does vB seem to be considered more "professional"? Does it deserve to have that title? If so, can we identify those features, and replicate them maybe in another "Invision Pro" forum product? I am merely posing questions...
Guest Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 So if I read it correctly, you're basing your statement on what you currently know about Nexus, Connect and IP.Dynamic? Or is it one in particular? Also, I am intruiged to know what the figures for vB vs. IPB customer levels are based upon? As far as I am aware, neither company release figures on their sales. :)
chickenbak Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 So if I read it correctly, you're basing your statement on what you currently know about Nexus, Connect and IP.Dynamic? Or is it one in particular? Also, I am intruiged to know what the figures for vB vs. IPB customer levels are based upon? As far as I am aware, neither company release figures on their sales. :) Yes, I am basing my statement on the following...what I currently know about the three aforementioned packages my perception of the "state of the internet" my observations of Invision happenings over the course of the last year or more my usage of per-annum renewed modular addons such as gallery and blog most importantly...speculation and conjectureIt just seems to me like resources might be spread out very thin...this can be gathered empirically by observing the changes and timelines of the development life cycles implemented. This on top of the fact that trying to tap into the CMS and server administration market, and actually be a formidable player is no easy feat. Server administration alone, which is far more niche than CMS has 2-3 VERY good choices to look over, and 5-7 decently priced, quality alternatives. It is ok to be a day late...but if you are a day late and a dollar short...you lose on every account.
Guest Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 I'd wait and see what IPS have up their sleeves. From what I know, Nexus is an incredible product - I am sure the rest are too. That said, I am not sure where you got the server administration thing from - there is not currently a server administration product in development. ;)
chickenbak Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 Hmmm, it seems that I might be mistaken when I referred to the "server administration" package. For some reason I was under the impression that Invision had something coming out that rivaled Plesk or CPanel...but I can't find anything about it. I apologize for that mistake. However, upon researching the site, I came up with 7 current projects... Connect Nexus Gallery Board Blog Vectura Dynamic I believe that is all of them, but please correct me if I am wrong. Out of 7 projects slated, only 3 of them actually exist in beta or final form. Please correct me if I am wrong in that regard. Again, I don't claim to know more than Invision's marketing team, but that would seem to be counter-productive in terms of marketing efforts. To publicize and announce projects and have less than 43% of them actually readily available doesn't seem like a promising PR push. Based on that alone one might wonder if resources are spread too thin. I have been sitting here waiting for IP.Dynamic to come out for over a year now...in fact, a good while over a year. I pushed back two projects waiting to see how it would turn out, to see if it was promising. Over a year later...instead of an actual release...all I have seen are 3 more projects announced...huh?!?!?!?! I don't fault Invision for that, but it certainly doesn't assuage my frustrations.I'd wait and see what IPS have up their sleeves. From what I know, Nexus is an incredible product - I am sure the rest are too. That said, I am not sure where you got the server administration thing from - there is not currently a server administration product in development. ;) I actually just posted that...it would have gone up faster but I had a lot to say ;) In regards to Nexus, I don't make any contentions in regards to its quality, but rather just point out that there are MANY products out there in that market that are already incredible products.
Dark Phantom Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 The last three products to be made public are being worked on a different team other then Matt. They added developers just for those products, and more developers to make the Gallery and Blog teams. They even added a developer to "update" IPB so Matt could work on future code which would be IPB 3.0 and IPD. I think the fact seperate teams are working on each project, you cannot fault the need to update IPB in order for IPD to be a product worth selling That is the reason IPD is not out, is because of the update that IPB required and the time it took to release the update. What good would IPD which would have been a great product without IPB, if the main features meant a connection to IPB itself. So before you fault the IPS staff I suggest you stop looking so much into their future and look at what they have done.
chickenbak Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 The last three products to be made public are being worked on a different team other then Matt. They added developers just for those products, and more developers to make the Gallery and Blog teams. They even added a developer to "update" IPB so Matt could work on future code which would be IPB 3.0 and IPD. I think the fact seperate teams are working on each project, you cannot fault the need to update IPB in order for IPD to be a product worth selling That is the reason IPD is not out, is because of the update that IPB required and the time it took to release the update. What good would IPD which would have been a great product without IPB, if the main features meant a connection to IPB itself. So before you fault the IPS staff I suggest you stop looking so much into their future and look at what they have done. The funny thing is...I AM looking at what they have done, or lack of it for that matter. Whenever what you have done is but a mere fraction of what you have or are promising, it frustrates individuals...I know I am not the only one. Regardless of whether or not people were added just for those projects or not...why weren't developers hired to help alleviate some of the pressure from Matt and get the long-promised IPDynamic out the door. I could be wrong, but I would assume that that is single handedly the most yearned for product in the "Invision To Be Released" line of offerings. I don't see having different teams for each projects being a rationalization or a substantiation for what has happened. I have seen blog entries about Matt's new development system where developers can collaborate on one project easily...what you are telling me is that they don't utilize it...it was built for fun? Then you mention IPB, which has seen its own release and development lines extended from what I have seen (and I could be wrong). I really don't see anything that you have brought up as particularly relevant in terms of alleviating my suspicious or frustration as a Invision customer. I love Invision as much as the next (ok maybe not, since every 3rd post for me is not a "Matt have my children" post, as was the joke a few months back), but I just want to know that the perpetual licenses that I paid for, and the time I have invested in Invision and its core line of products isn't a bad move. When you get into the Invision line, one of its biggest benefits is its quality line of products...it is an investment in a brand and development ideal...or at least used to be. It is the same thing when you invest into an SLR camera brand, be it Nikon or Canon etc...now one might have reason to wonder if doing that is a good idea if core products are not going to have resources allocated accordingly.
cojo Posted November 20, 2005 Posted November 20, 2005 IPS is free to expand into whatever areas they desire. It's their company not yours. Can they compete in product lines where they're late to market? Who knows. This will be their challenge and not something you have any say over. If everyone used the same logic you're trying to place on them, we wouldn't have the variety of products and services we enjoy today. There would be little to no incentive to keep pushing for new feature development. As a customer though, you have every right to complain should their decisions impact the quality of support or upgrades to products you purchased. Trying to push yourself into their internal affairs is stepping way over the line. You guys, who insist on doing this, are far more annoying than a backseat driver with no license.
chickenbak Posted November 21, 2005 Posted November 21, 2005 IPS is free to expand into whatever areas they desire. It's their company not yours. Can they compete in product lines where they're late to market? Who knows. This will be their challenge and not something you have any say over. If everyone used the same logic you're trying to place on them, we wouldn't have the variety of products and services we enjoy today. There would be little to no incentive to keep pushing for new feature development. As a customer though, you have every right to complain should their decisions impact the quality of support or upgrades to products you purchased. Trying to push yourself into their internal affairs is stepping way over the line. You guys, who insist on doing this, are far more annoying than a backseat driver with no license. Slow down there bucko, before you get your panties in a bunch over some misplaced sense of self-righteousness I would think about what about you just said. In your own post your contradicted yourself. By your own admission you state that we have every right to complain should theri decisions impact the quality of support or upgrades to products we have purchased...is that not what this thread is all about? The only thing that may be in question is to what EXTENT their decisions affect us. I know it is their company not mine, but leave that kind of juvenile thinking for kindergarten class shall we "cojo". I don't care if they want to create 15 million projects, as long as they take care of their current projects and keep the promises that they have made to their current customers. Their decisions affects developer's projects, their development timelines and methods, etc...this is a direct effect on people's livelihoods...not accepting or acknowledging this fact (which you don't seem to) is both ignorant, and would be reason enough not to be considered professional (on the subject of why vB might be considered more "professional"). When you ask that developers or professionals put trust in your work, especially asking them to pay for it, I would think a mutual respect should be evident and that you adhere to development guidelines within reason. Your assertion that if they didn't push 7 projects out the door all at once instead of focusing on one or two projects at a time it would stifle innovation or progress is absolutely absurd...did you even think about what you were saying when you said it? I am trying to have a civil discussion about whether ultimately Invision is a "brand" that as a developer I am going to want to rely on...and I wanted to gather opinion from other Invision users as well. Where is the fault in that? If the unanimous verdict is that Invision is turning its back on its core...it will hurt them...I am not trying to determine their future, I am merely trying to assertain whether I want to be a part of it or not. So before you start insulting me, I would learn to at least comprehend the motives which are so apparent in someone's post...fair enough...and certainly lend them the respect of utilizing a bit of social grace and decency in the process of a response.
Rikki Posted November 21, 2005 Posted November 21, 2005 If everyone said "Oh, there's already a product that does this, we won't bother", we'd all still be using DOS and floppy disks. Yes, our new products have some established competition but we believe we can compete with them. Let's not forget vB was already established before IPB existed. It's fair enough that you may have reservations about development, but please don't judge them until they're available and matured. It's difficult to judge an unreleased product on some information, without having used them. If you still have reservations after doing that, then that would be a good time to talk to us about it :) Also, others have mentioned it but I'll reiterate it - all new products are developed by other developers. None of the new products - including IPD - will affect other products, because we're expanding as we develop. We're not simply trying to do more with the same resources, we're growing the resources too.
Management Charles Posted November 21, 2005 Management Posted November 21, 2005 I can certainly understand your perception that we are losing our way, neglecting projects, or otherwise. I would say that perception is the result of our recent silence on new projects and enhancements to existing products and services. I can say that the silence is nearly over. In the next few weeks you will see announcements on all products and services: old and new. Existing products will see some more small releases to not only correct the occasional bug but also add lots of "polish" to the products. We have found that minor changes (rewording items, moving thing, small enhancements) can have a large impact on the overall feel of the product. In regards to new products in development again there is more going on than might be apparent. In fact, Nexus is already in beta testing outside of our internal testing. We have a group of customers testing the product and giving a lot of feedback. We are also using it for our own ecommerce needs. As I said, I can understand the perception. We have purposely been fairly silent the last several weeks on the inner workings at IPS as we work to finish some semi-secret projects and prepare for public beta releases of products in development. The direction we are going should be fairly obvious :) .... a complete suite of products to run both the front end (web site, community, etc.) and back end (customer service, ecommerce, etc.) of your web presence. While it may not seem so right now: that suite is closer than any would imagine to completion as we did not announce the new products in development until they were nearing the end of the development cycle.
Logan Posted November 21, 2005 Posted November 21, 2005 I can say that the silence is nearly over. In the next few weeks you will see announcements on all products and services: old and new. [b]Existing products will see some more small releases to not only correct the occasional bug but also add lots of "polish" to the products.[/b] We have found that minor changes (rewording items, moving thing, small enhancements) can have a large impact on the overall feel of the product. Good! I hate waiting until the next major version to see bugs fixed in IPB. It's about time that even just small releases will be made to "polish" and fix bugs. I have no idea why IPS seemed to not like doing that earlier. Every other company does that, not only for BBS but desktop software as well (Microsoft, Adobe, etc...). This is good news :)
chickenbak Posted November 21, 2005 Posted November 21, 2005 If everyone said "Oh, there's already a product that does this, we won't bother", we'd all still be using DOS and floppy disks. Yes, our new products have some established competition but we believe we can compete with them. Let's not forget vB was already established before IPB existed. It's fair enough that you may have reservations about development, but please don't judge them until they're available and matured. It's difficult to judge an unreleased product on some information, without having used them. If you still have reservations after doing that, then that would be a good time to talk to us about it :) Also, others have mentioned it but I'll reiterate it - all new products are developed by other developers. None of the new products - including IPD - will affect other products, because we're expanding as we develop. We're not simply trying to do more with the same resources, we're growing the resources too. Thanks for your response, and your candidness. As I said prior, I wouldn't dare actually judge the product before it was released, everything I said, as was pointed out...was merely conjecture on my part. I honestly can't wait until I see what you guys can come up with, and having a dedicated team for each project might mean better QC across the board! For me the biggest frustration is IP.Dynamic no doubt. Waiting is a terrible game :(I can certainly understand your perception that we are losing our way, neglecting projects, or otherwise. I would say that perception is the result of our recent silence on new projects and enhancements to existing products and services. I can say that the silence is nearly over. In the next few weeks you will see announcements on all products and services: old and new. Existing products will see some more small releases to not only correct the occasional bug but also add lots of "polish" to the products. We have found that minor changes (rewording items, moving thing, small enhancements) can have a large impact on the overall feel of the product. In regards to new products in development again there is more going on than might be apparent. In fact, Nexus is already in beta testing outside of our internal testing. We have a group of customers testing the product and giving a lot of feedback. We are also using it for our own ecommerce needs. As I said, I can understand the perception. We have purposely been fairly silent the last several weeks on the inner workings at IPS as we work to finish some semi-secret projects and prepare for public beta releases of products in development. The direction we are going should be fairly obvious :) .... a complete suite of products to run both the front end (web site, community, etc.) and back end (customer service, ecommerce, etc.) of your web presence. While it may not seem so right now: that suite is closer than any would imagine to completion as we did not announce the new products in development until they were nearing the end of the development cycle. Certainly good to hear, and I salivate in anticipation at what is in store. Along those lines though...the products that you are wanting to provide are products that if top notch, you can match current market trends and charge thousands of dollars for...which might be "un-invision" of you. Part of my banter was trying to gather if your goal is to truly go down that route and be a tier-1 provider of solutions, or merely a quality provider of value software. If the former, I applaud you for moving up, if the latter I applaud you for staying true to your roots. It is a win/win for the industry as a whole!
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